IRCloggy #hts 2013-07-04

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	2013-07-04
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mpmc	Good morning all!	04:31
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linuxstb	adamsutton: I got as far as mapping a channel with your fork, but I can't seem to tune to it. Not sure if that's just because the initial scan is still going on?	07:44
	adamsutton: pidvbip is sending the subscriptionStart message, but tvh never responds. The last line in the log is "Jul 04 08:42:35.730 subscription: "192.168.33.73 [ pi \| pidvbip ]" subscribing on "RTPI", weight: 150, adapter: "/dev/dvb/adapter0/frontend0", network: "Astra 19E", mux: "10723000 MHz H [onid:013E, tsid:2B5C]", provider: "", service: "RTPI""	07:45
	adamsutton: And tvheadend seems to be using 100% CPU	07:47
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mpmc	linuxstb: Playing with the rewrite? is dvb-s working for you? Last time I tried it it wasn't.	08:03
linuxstb	Read what I just said - it seems to be finding services, but I can't view them.	08:04
mpmc	I only see one message, 'I got as far as mapping a channel with your fork, but I can't seem to tune to it. Not sure if that's just because the initial scan is still going on?'	08:05
linuxstb	mpmc: http://colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_log/hts?date=2013-07-04	08:08
mpmc	=_= instantbird didn't show your other messages, just reloaded and all is well, must be a bug.	08:08
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sgtpepper	morning	08:15
adamsutton	morning all	08:16
	linuxstb: I'll have a look, have to admit its a while since I actually checked playback, I know stupid, but I've been so busy of late I'm struggling again to see the path forward	08:16
mpmc	:(	08:17
	adamsutton: You're not being worked to death are you? :(	08:19
adamsutton	linuxstb: and I'm pretty sure the diseqc code doesn't actually work (silly mistakes with config)	08:19
linuxstb	adamsutton: Also, I wasn't sure if/how I could configure diseqc	08:19
adamsutton	mpmc: always	08:19
	linuxstb: atm, you kinda can't (i.e it doesn't work), but I'll fix it	08:19
	it's just the stupid way I did the config	08:20
mpmc	You know what tvh needs? DAB/FM tuning =D	08:20
adamsutton	FM no, DAB maybe	08:21
	I'm not sure what the media formats are, I've never looked, but I know DAB tuning is integrated with the DVB API I think	08:22
linuxstb	DAB's really just useful for portable reception IMO. For tvh on a fixed server, there are probably better quality streams available (internet or DVB-*)	08:22
mpmc	I'm listening to FM atm using SDRSharp works great, dab reception around here, not so much.	08:22
adamsutton	linuxstb: that's kinda what I always thought	08:23
	though I don't know how much radio is on DVB-T? never looked,	08:23
linuxstb	And I'm not really sure what Linux support there is for DAB.	08:23
	adamsutton: A fair amount - all the BBC channels, plus 10-15 commercial I think. Satellite has many more.	08:24
adamsutton	indeed	08:24
mpmc	I can't believe how cheap these sticks [DVB, FM and DAB!], I paid £11 on Amazon, they're available for £6 on ebay!	08:24
	linuxstb needs to make pidvbip handle radio again	08:24
linuxstb	mpmc: Do you have DAB in Linux?	08:24
mpmc	linuxstb: I haven't tried it yet.	08:25
	Works in Windows though.	08:25
	I'll run a VM and see what it makes of it :p	08:25
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clandmeter	mpmc: which did you buy?	08:54
mpmc	clandmeter: http://www.amazon.co.uk/DVB-T-RTL-SDR-Receiver-Realtek-RTL2832U/dp/B009VBUYA0	08:55
	It's fulfilled by amazon now! I had to wait over a week for it from china =_=	08:56
clandmeter	i got lots of RTL2832U sticks here	08:56
	but this seems to have another chip	08:56
mpmc	Yup.	08:57
clandmeter	R820T	08:57
	RTL2832U has linux support (if you get the correct hwid's)	08:57
mpmc	Works really well as an FM receiver :p	08:57
clandmeter	but im not sure about the R820T	08:57
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mpmc	Yeah it works with rtl_fm apparently	08:58
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mpmc	clandmeter: The latest media git sees the r820t :)	09:03
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clandmeter	mpmc: for a kernel freak like you, thats no challenge.	09:05
mpmc	clandmeter: I'm running it in a VM on stock Ubuntu kernel :p	09:05
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manio	bow: around?	09:14
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lja	good morning all	09:24
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lja	adamsutton: I've just read your talk with sgtpepper. looks like you're new code can't use both tuners at time?	09:25
	yesterdat when I tested it, I had adapter0 in the production tvh and was using adapter1 in the testing, the message was always: no free adapter (or something like that)	09:26
	yesterday*	09:26
	even dvb-t wasn't working (witch is my adapter2)	09:27
	which*	09:27
	brb	09:27
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dickon	AIUI, the main differendce between DAB and DVB is at the physical layer.	09:46
	They're both MPEG 2 transport streams carrying layer 2 audio (albeit one also does pictures).	09:46
linuxstb	dickon: Yes, or AAC(+?) in the case of DAB+	09:48
	dickon nods.	09:48
linuxstb	mpmc: BTW, what aerial are you using for FM/DAB reception with that USB stick	09:49
dickon	I believe DRM is similar. I'm not sure what the differeces actually are, other than virtually nobody other than the UK uses DAB.	09:49
linuxstb	I thought most of Europe used DAB?	09:49
	(at least)	09:49
dickon	Oh, hmm. It's obviously gained a bit of traction since I last looked at it.	09:52
	R&D were quite pessimistic about its chances.	09:52
	http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/18/Digital_Audio_Broadcasting.svg	09:52
linuxstb	I'm a bit frustrated at the lack of support in car radios - they don't seem to bother...	09:53
Tozz_	all luxury brands have DVB as an option	09:55
	but noone buys it ;)	09:55
	eeh	09:55
	DAB*	09:55
	DAB was cancelled in the netherlands, due to lack of users/listening equipment	09:56
	but I believe there were some plans to start it up again	09:56
linuxstb	Yes, reading wikipedia, it seems that many countries have turned off (or are in the process of turning off) their DAB networks	09:59
	dickon: Any idea what/where the best quality BBC internet radio streams are?	10:02
dickon	Probably iPlayer	10:03
bow	manio: yes	10:03
dickon	I really want a feed from Playout, so we can store the raw 44k1 output. Dunno if I'm ever going to get it, though.	10:04
linuxstb	6music at least seems to be 128kbps AAC on iplayer	10:05
	dickon: Any idea if 5 Live is recorded in stereo?	10:06
	(IIRC, it's sometimes simulcasted on stereo stations)	10:07
dickon	Not a clue, sorry.	10:07
	I'd expect so, but...	10:07
linuxstb	Ah yes, BBC Radio Scotland for example simulcasts 5 Live overnight.	10:09
	5Live is still mono on iplayer though (96kbps)	10:10
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linuxstb	dickon: The raw output is 44k1, not 48k?	10:11
dickon	Actually, I'm not sure.	10:13
	It may even be 96k these days.	10:13
manio	bow: you was right, i found your memleak :)	10:14
linuxstb	dickon: Really? That seems overkill.	10:14
manio	i'll commit it after talking with theparasol	10:14
bow	already did that (for the one in process_input)	10:18
linuxstb	dickon: You wouldn't use something like FLAC to compress them? Or is that more effort than it's worth?	10:18
manio	bow: and i did it for dvbapi_start_descrambling	10:19
	bow: pm	10:19
dickon	96k's becoming popular at the high end, or so I'm told. I think it's probably worth it, personally.	10:19
	And yes, probably just keep it raw. FLAC's good, but the data isn't a huge amount in the grand scheme of things.	10:20
opdenkamp	i don't think i listen to any music that actually benefits from that :)	10:25
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opdenkamp	or my hearing is just not good enough	10:25
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Jon-Boy	Hi - Is there some "official" documentation somewhere on the current status of timeshift with XBMC / TVH? I'm running XBMC 13 alpha 5 with TVH 3.4 and pause / resume works well but I can't skip (which I thought should work) or wind (which I didn't expect to work) forwards or back. Happy to move to a development build of TVH but not sure which one to go to...	10:27
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opdenkamp	here's your official documentation: it's a bit of a hack, and it will probably screw up the video decoder when using it and i'm too busy with other things to spend time on that :)	10:30
linuxstb	Jon-Boy: I don't know about xbmc, but tvheadend 3.4 (the last stable release) should have everything needed for timeshift on the tvh side.	10:30
	opdenkamp was talking about the xbmc+pvr.hts side of things	10:31
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Jon-Boy	linuxstb: Is there a reliably working client to test the TVH side of timeshifting?	10:34
opdenkamp	Jon-Boy: i gave you your answer, where the problem is	10:34
	it's caused by various (wrong) assumptions in xbmc	10:34
Jon-Boy	opdenkamp: Fits in with my understanding of the state of things! Good to hear it from source... BTW Really liking XBMC 13. Everything works really well for my use cases (except for timeshift ;-) )	10:36
linuxstb	Jon-Boy: BtbN's vlc plugin supports it I think. And perhaps Showtime. I'm intending to support it in my Pi client, but haven't got round to it yet.	10:36
Jon-Boy	linuxstb: Will have to dust off my Pi and give your client a go (not for timeshifting). I'll try VLC. Thanks.	10:40
mpmc	linuxstb: I'm using the roof top TV Aerial connected to a booster, without it I get no DAB at all.	10:41
adamsutton	lja: no, I couldn't actually get one of the adapters to work full stop, for whatever reason. I'd be very surprised if the new code is any different on the 6981 (I just wanted to check) since it follows the same basic model.	10:41
	I thought I had a reasonable idea of which change was likely to have caused the issues, but have thus far been unable to prove anything	10:41
	I just remember that it was a similar issue that broke my 6981 back when I was using it and caused me to add a workaround in TVH	10:42
lja	in your 6985 the new code 'just works'?	10:42
adamsutton	yes	10:43
	and my dual T2, and I'd guess lots of other devices where 3.4 "just works"	10:44
	which is why I still believe the issue is fundamentally in the TBS driver	10:44
	if this was a fundamental multi-tuner bug in TVH, all hell would break loose :p including on my own system	10:44
	lja: the main change, that I assumed has caused the issue, is the way (timing wise) that the various device handles are opened/closed	10:46
lja	I see, and that is related with the FW download	10:46
adamsutton	I sorta managed to demonstrate this on my 6981, and that's how I added the mod	10:46
	not sure	10:46
	but when I added the code that closes down the FDs (inc FE) this broken my 6981, and caused the inability of one tuner to receive a signal	10:47
	so I made that optional, basically I found that if I open one FE, then DVR and THEN open the second FE that one didn't work	10:47
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adamsutton	it only worked if I opened both FEs (and kept them open) before opening DVR/DMX devices etc..	10:48
lja	hopefuly I'll manage to have a working driver in the next days	10:48
	and then hopefuly fix that	10:48
adamsutton	but in 3.4 we added the concept of enable/disable devices, and because of this the FEs are NOT opened on startup (or at least left open) and so could create the above sequence	10:48
	in 3.2 that is not the case, the FEs are always opened (and left open) on startup and only the other devices get opened and closed (and always AFTER all FEs are opened)	10:49
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lja	ok, the required sequence is: open FE0 -> open DVR0 -> open FE1 -> open DVR1 ?	10:50
adamsutton	I tried hacking this into code on sgtpepper's system, but it didn't appear to fix the problem, but then I'm not 100% sure whether I did it right etc..	10:50
	lja: well, that was what I found from within TVH, I never got as far as writing a small test bit of code to demonstrate the failure	10:50
	as always, other stuff got in the way, so I just added the "workaround" and forgot all about it	10:51
	lja: what was REALLY strange, is that if I used 2 FEs 1 per TVH instance, it worked, which I just didn't get	10:51
lja	2 FEs 1 per TVH, that makes 4 FEs ? didn't get it?	10:53
adamsutton	lja: mistyped, 2 FEs split across 2 TVH instances (1 per)	10:53
lja	oh	10:53
	then its even weird	10:54
	that looks defenitivelly a driver issue	10:55
adamsutton	well the fact that the code works just fine with a whole bunch of other devices has always made me think that	10:59
	sgtpepper is jumping into ebay	10:59
adamsutton	lol	10:59
	sgtpepper: don't give up just yet, I must say, this issue aside, my 6981 was fine	11:00
	I would still be using it today if TBS hadn't sent me my 6985 :p	11:00
lja	sgtpepper: give me a few more days to try to release an open source driver for 'our' card	11:00
	going to eat something, brb	11:01
sgtpepper	adamsutton, don't get me wrong, I love it, this thing bums me out	11:02
	adamsutton, btw... tvheadend should be able to tune into a C-Band MUX right?	11:02
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adamsutton	sgtpepper: assuming your LNB supports it yes, TVH doesn't care about it, its whatever the cards (and LNB for sat) support	11:11
linuxstb	lja: What kernel version are you using (for your 6981 driver) ? Any idea what range of kernels it will work with?	11:13
adamsutton	linuxstb: you've got a 6981 now right? do you have these problems with only 1 tuner working, or you not using it with TVH?	11:17
linuxstb	adamsutton: Yes, and yes, I do have them.	11:18
adamsutton	hmmm	11:18
mpmc	Lets face it, we're all doomed :p	11:18
	linuxstb has faith in lja	11:18
adamsutton	I think we have to have faith in him :p	11:19
mpmc	Hes the last hope :p	11:19
adamsutton	what other hope do we have, I'm not in the mood for putting more hacks into TVH just to fix a bug in their driver :p	11:19
mpmc	You could always detect TBS devices in TVH and have a popup saying something a long the lines of "This manufactures drivers seriously suck, use at own risk" :p	11:20
	But then you wouldn't get free stuff :p	11:21
linuxstb	Well, we've had the free stuff.	11:22
mpmc	OK, any more free stuff :p	11:22
adamsutton	I'm still waiting for the "regular" donation :p but I'm not holding my breath	11:23
mpmc	It's not a donation if you're waiting for it, that sounds more like a payment to me :p	11:24
	mpmc tuts	11:24
adamsutton	I'm not "waiting" in that sense :p	11:24
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mpmc	Lol :p	11:25
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adamsutton	they just mentioned they would make a regular donation as they started to ship units (MOI) running TVH, as a expression of "continued support" (or something to that effect)	11:25
	I'm not naive to believe it would actually happen, it "might" but as I said, I'm not holding my breath :p	11:25
mpmc	OK so that means they've not sold many :p	11:26
adamsutton	probably :p	11:26
linuxstb	Have they actually started real shipping yet? i.e. beyond the initial 500?	11:26
mpmc	Yes.	11:26
adamsutton	their original donation was reasonably generous though, in comparison to what they intended to ship originally	11:26
	though its still peanuts to an organisation of that size	11:26
	but it keeps me from completely slating them :p	11:27
mpmc	A donation is a donation :)	11:27
adamsutton	very true	11:27
linuxstb	Did they ever ask about hardware CI support? It seems an odd mismatch for their hardware to have two CI slots, but the main software on the device to not support them.	11:27
adamsutton	every donation is indeed generous	11:27
	but they're usually harder, in my experience, to get from corporations then individuals (who are innately more generous)	11:27
linuxstb	I doubt it would be that much work, but no-one uses hardware CAMs any more...	11:27
adamsutton	no I didn't	11:28
	I've not spoken to them really since the discussions when they were shipping the MOIs to us. I occasionally ping emails to Konstantin, as he's the one with the technical knowledge	11:28
mpmc	I would have bought a MOI if it wasn't based on an old tablet :p	11:30
linuxstb	mpmc: You need to get that out of your head. Having the same SoC doesn't mean it's based on your dodgy tablet… ;)	11:32
mpmc	linuxstb: I've looked at the boards, many of the chips are the same [Even the ram chips], it's just laid out differently :p	11:33
linuxstb	Then they are probably just both based on the SoC reference board	11:34
mpmc	I guess your right, It's still crap :p	11:34
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sgtpepper	from the MOI site: Support open source code; easy for updating and maintaining; Professional technical support from TV headend.	11:45
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adamsutton	sgtpepper: huh, "professional support from TV headend", hmmm, might have to have a word about that	12:23
	if you're lucky you might get an answer from a grumpy me, or one of the other knowledgeable people in here, but I don't think it could ever be called "Professional" even if we were being paid :p	12:24
	mpmc thinks most in here are professionals :p	12:28
andoma	heh	12:30
mpmc	Note how I said 'Most' ;)	12:31
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lja	linuxstb: it will be based on the latest kernel tree	13:15
	or else it won't get into the tree at all	13:15
	currently 3.10 I think	13:15
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zzattack	I'm noticing very choppy playback with my HDHomerun device over tvheadend	13:25
	how would I debug this?	13:25
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linuxstb	lja: Any idea how that differrs to 3.2?	13:42
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lja	not much	13:42
	some structs and functions arguments	13:42
linuxstb	OK, I'll see if it builds with my kernel when the time comes. I'll need to figure out how to uninstall TBS's mess…	13:43
lja	I had bo backport the driver for my dvbt stick from the latest kernel to 3.2 and it want't that hard	13:43
	had to*	13:43
	wasn't *	13:43
	damm so many typing mistakes	13:44
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linuxstb	lja: Just to confirm I'm understanding, the only closed source module for the 6981 is tbs6981fe_driver.o, which is very similar to cx24116.c ?	13:58
lja	yes	13:59
	some functions are copy/paste	14:00
linuxstb	lja: PM?	14:01
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zipleen	lja last december I tried installing the latest tbs 6981 drivers in the latest kernel back then (3.9 I think) and it just crashed everything… something about new api ...	14:23
lja	true	14:25
	they use the old api	14:25
	from 3.2 I think	14:25
	oh	14:25
	I'm talking about the latest drives	14:25
	from May	14:26
	not sure what existed before May	14:26
	but still these 'latest' drives use an old api	14:27
mpmc	lja: I've sent you a PM :)	14:31
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sgtpepper	damn... I took the tube in the wrong direction	16:50
	lja: you're re-writing the tbs driver? or just writing small fixes?	16:57
lja	none of those	16:58
	I'm writting a driver for the cx24117 (wich is used by tbs6981) ;)	16:58
	its impossible to write fixes because tbs drivers are closed source	16:59
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sgtpepper	that's the decoder right?	17:05
lja	yes the demodulator	17:08
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lja	the pci-e bridge is the cx23885 and the driver for that is open source	17:09
zipleen	which kernel and driver version are you using for tbs ?	17:12
sgtpepper	zipleen: driver is the last one	17:15
	let me check the kernel version	17:16
	3.5.5-2 on Fedora 17	17:16
zipleen	! - i'm using 3.5.7	17:17
sgtpepper	jic I e-mailed the tbs guys about the issue, telling them I'd be happy to provide logs et. al	17:17
	zipleen: and? are you experiencing the same issue?	17:17
zipleen	sgtpepper: what's the issue you're referring to ? I have the testing->bad in one of the tuners, and it won't work in 3.4 (but it works in 3.2)	17:18
sgtpepper	yup, same one	17:18
zipleen	i'm having that issue since I installed the thing, back in october or something	17:19
sgtpepper	zipleen: every 3.2 version works?	17:19
	have you tried more than one?	17:19
zipleen	I only tested latest 3.2, it seemed to work	17:19
sgtpepper	yep, for some reason 3.2 segfaults so I could'nt test it properly	17:19
zipleen	but I need to configure every transponder all over again to switch to 3.2 to know that it works	17:20
sgtpepper	but I guess I could try 3.2.X	17:20
zipleen	yeah it segfaulted and I needed to reconfigure everything :p	17:20
	btw, i was using git tag "v3.2"	17:21
sgtpepper	since I'm on the tube for the next hour or so.... I'll try compiling 3.2.24... not sure I can configure it from my tablet though	17:22
	well... I'd have to disable tvheadend so it doesn't go bonkers on the database and all thata	17:22
	well... I'll compile it at least	17:22
	if 3.2.24 works fine.... well its not brilliant but I guess I could use it...	17:23
zipleen	I used a temporary directory ( -c ) for the new data. I need to make my iPhone app work with 3.2 anyway :p	17:24
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SgtPepper	can you bind tvheadend to a specific interface?	17:28
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sgtpepper	ok, you can use an alternative port	17:31
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eindano	linuxstb: In pidvbip have you modified the files in vgfont lib?	18:13
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eindano	... compared to the files in the firmware repo?	18:19
Elfish	somehow tvheadend doesn't like my timezone :o	18:25
	my os is set to +1	18:25
	tvheadend ignores that :(	18:25
	that only happens tho if u manually add a recording	18:25
	recordings programmed through the epg seem to work	18:26
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linuxstb	eindano: Yes, in a few ways. From memory, I modified them to embed the font in the pidvbip binary, rather than loading it at runtime. I also increased some arbitrary line/paragraph limits I think.	19:15
eindano	linuxstb: ok,think there has been some bugfixes after the import to pidvbip	19:31
	linuxstb goes to do a diff	19:33
adamsutton	linuxstb: diff'ing anything exciting?	19:36
opdenkamp	a binary	19:36
	it differs	19:36
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bow	:)	19:37
adamsutton	:p	19:37
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	linuxstb ignores the children	19:38
adamsutton	shouldn't they be in bed?	19:38
linuxstb	eindano: Do you fancy merging it? If not, I'll be happy to have a look.	19:39
opdenkamp	don't they start crying when you ignore them?	19:39
linuxstb	adamsutton: You try telling them that	19:39
adamsutton	oi mini-linuxstb's, go to bed!	19:39
	linuxstb goes to pass on the message	19:40
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SgtPepper-AFK	hmm...	19:41
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SgtPepper-AFK	SgtPepper: want my nickname back	19:41
	lol	19:41
	I'lll never irc from 3g again	19:41
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opdenkamp	or you just register with nickserv...	19:41
SgtPepper-AFK	opdenkamp: I'm	19:42
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adamsutton	or use a bouncer :)	19:42
opdenkamp	oh you're online as yourself :P	19:42
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opdenkamp	ping yourself :)	19:42
	or that	19:42
SgtPepper-AFK	back to my old self	19:43
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sgtpepper	I missed me	19:43
	Well since I'm not doing anything, I'll reconfigure 3.2.24	19:44
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sgtpepper	arghh... wife is listening to the radio	19:48
	the f*cking backstreet boys... in 2013	19:49
	they should be dead already	19:49
	ihaha	19:49
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adamsutton	just pushed some really good fixes from PR283, fixes several memleaks, among other things	20:00
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linuxstb	adamsutton: I think we all owe him a beer	20:07
	Of course, he'll need to do it again with dvb-rewrite ;)	20:07
adamsutton	yes, I've sent him a quick email	20:08
	just to say thanks, some good work there	20:08
	yep	20:08
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linuxstb	adamsutton: Is "char addrstr = (char)malloc(50);" something you would tend to do (as opposed to char addrstr[50]) ?	20:09
adamsutton	no	20:10
	I think there were a couple like that, I'm not sure who introduced them, if it was me I need a good slap	20:10
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adamsutton	hmm, looks like it was BtbN that added that one	20:11
linuxstb	Well, at least he included the free() ;)	20:12
adamsutton	looks like he was responsible for the others :p	20:12
	so I'm at least partly to blame, as I probably merged that in	20:13
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adamsutton	yeah, looks like they were all linked to his IPv6 code, I must pay more attention in future :p though like you said, at least he free()'d it afterwards, which is more than can be said for some of my code :p	20:14
dickon	People bother to cast the output of malloc()?	20:16
linuxstb	Ah, I didn't notice that either.	20:16
dickon	It's a void * -- definitively, you don't need to.	20:16
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Rudde	How does DVB-T work? Can I trsnafer unlimited channels with one cable?	20:17
	or is it limitations there too?	20:17
dickon	Er.	20:18
linuxstb	Well, you will lose signal strength when splitting to different tuners, but in theory, yes.	20:18
Rudde	cool	20:18
BtbN	Well, not unlimited	20:18
Rudde	new apartment I'm looking at only has DVB-T :/	20:18
	But like 4?	20:18
dickon	Ah.	20:18
linuxstb	Well yes, "up to the limit of the number of broadcast multiplexes"	20:18
BtbN	no idea how many that are for DVB-T	20:19
	but for DVB-C is't quite a lot	20:19
adamsutton	dickon: probably comes from C++ coding	20:19
linuxstb	Rudde: Yes, that shouldn't be a problem.	20:19
Rudde	Wonderfull	20:19
	I don't really want DVB-/	20:19
dickon	adamsutton: Oh. See earlier about my attitude towards C++.	20:20
Rudde	DVB-T but the apartment i s quite nice	20:20
dickon	Rudde: What would you prefer?	20:20
adamsutton	dickon: wasn't an excuse or recommendation on languages :p just an explanation of behaviour :p	20:20
Rudde	DVB-C really	20:20
	dickon nods.	20:20
dickon	Even so, I didn't think you needed to cast void * to other pointers even with C++.	20:21
adamsutton	I think g++ warns about such things	20:21
BtbN	you usualy don't use void* at all in C++	20:22
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BtbN	Nearly only when working with C libs	20:23
adamsutton	and its an error by default, had to check ;)	20:23
	tbh, I rarely use new even in C++ (and yes I do C++) except for objects, guess its habit.	20:24
BtbN	so you use malloc/calloc for array in c++?	20:24
adamsutton	anyway, its all mute, don't dynamically create throw-away fixed size arrays :p	20:25
	yeah	20:25
	probably because I write more C than C++	20:25
dickon	C++ has gone a long way downhill from 'a well written C program is a valid C++ program', or whatever that quote is.	20:25
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BtbN	I usualy don't use primitve arrays at all	20:25
	only for very simple cases	20:26
	There are nice container classes for most cases	20:26
dickon	'moot'. Not 'mute'. Dunno where that came from, but it's been increasingly common over the past few years.	20:26
adamsutton	good point ;)	20:26
	lazy me, its getting late :p	20:26
	tbh, I used to do a fair bit of both C and C++, but since working on TVH, I've definitely migrated back towards C for more things	20:27
	there are some things in C++ I like, but mostly some of the minor tweaks in syntax (because I'm lazy)	20:27
BtbN	If c had something like smart pointers, i'd like it much more.	20:27
andoma	gcc can do cleanup-when-stuff-does-out-of-scope	20:28
BtbN	only for stuff on the stack	20:28
andoma	true	20:28
BtbN	no reference counting smart pointer	20:28
dickon	TBF, that's about 90% of the use.	20:28
	I quite like Apache / APR's pool model.	20:29
	Works very well for transactional systems.	20:29
adamsutton	smart pointers are defintely useful, but it can also lead to some sloppy code that assumes everything will be cleaned up for you	20:30
dickon	GC does that in general. I don't like it.	20:32
BtbN	Another thing i don't like in C is that it's very complicated to use any kind of data structures. Even simple linked lists involve a lot of code. Hashmaps and so on are even worse.	20:32
dickon	A lot of the trouble with server-side Java is the GC making things unpredictable.	20:32
BtbN	smartpointers aren't garbage collection	20:32
adamsutton	no that's not what dickon was saying	20:33
dickon	They still hide things from you, and mean you don't need to know what your program is actually doing at any given time. That seems to me to be a dangerous thing to teach people.	20:34
adamsutton	he was just making a general comment about how such things lead to sloppy coding, because they create assumptions things will be cleaned up for you etc..	20:34
dickon	Quite.	20:34
adamsutton	and there he said it for himself ;)	20:34
BtbN	That's true for whatever language and style you code	20:34
dickon	Not really.	20:34
	C was my third language after BBC BASIC and Pascal.	20:35
adamsutton	BtbN: that was what I always thought, but tbh, the queue/redblack macro's aren't that bad, and if you really wanted to you could add some extra boiler plate to simplify a few things	20:35
BtbN	adamsutton: yeah, but they're just lists.	20:35
dickon	Might've been fourth, after ARM assembly. I forget.	20:35
adamsutton	though tbh I've started moving away from C++ stdlib structures to stuff more like what we have in TVH, I feel in much more control of what I;m doing	20:35
	BtbN: redblack tree is basically what's used for many hashmap implementations	20:36
	C++ map/set are both implemented as red-black tree's I think	20:37
	the only thing about the queue/redblack stuff is its intrusive, which adds certain constrains and limitations about how, where and when you can put things into a list/hash etc..	20:40
	this was what first put me off, but you come to realise you just have to think more about the initial design, and you can still create arbitrary lists, it just takes a bit more effort.	20:41
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	linuxstb wonders why omxplayer can't seek in transport streams - surely ffmpeg supports it?	20:52
dickon	Wish I knew...	20:52
Gaston\|Home	adamsutton, I just read that you are now using TBS6985, I seem to remember that you used to be on TBS6981. Any particular reason for the upgrade?	20:53
linuxstb	How nasty is this script? https://github.com/huceke/omxplayer/blob/master/prepare-native-raspbian.sh (as a way to build omxplayer natively)	20:53
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lja_	hey	21:11
linuxstb	lja_: Hi.	21:31
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dickon	Pretty nasty, but then so's omxplayer, so it's fair.	22:14
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