IRCloggy #perl6 2013-06-23

Provider of IRC logs since 2005.

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	2013-06-23
timotimo	now i finally understand what »ö« is %)	00:04
sorear	LD	00:04
	:D	00:04
timotimo	holy hell, the camelia.svg is weird	00:06
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timotimo	every line seems to be made up of rectangles	00:06
	and they are aligned to create lines; except in inkscape i can see little slits between the rectangles	00:07
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diakopter	well, building nqp-jvm from scratch took 6 minutes; 6.5 minutes for rakudo-jvm	00:08
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timotimo	oh, even weirder, there is little pie-slices between the rectangles even	00:11
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sorear	timotimo: i think that if you make a svg that looks approximately like the current one but is neater it would be gladly accepted	00:15
timotimo	i have a wacom tablet at home, i could surely invest a few minutes	00:16
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sorear	ugh. nqpclasshow assumes nqp::where values are unique	00:26
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sorear	in addition to the multi cache	00:26
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labster	Int.round($base) is failing because Int defines a method round () {self; }. What I don't know is if making a multi in Real.pm is worth the Int.round() optimization.	00:28
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colomon	496 even, 504 odd	00:33
	1000 good versus 0 bad	00:33
	jnthn++	00:33
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diakopter	Files=713, Tests=19638, 1905 wallclock secs ( 4.58 usr 1.32 sys + 22.96 cusr 7.30 csys = 36.16 CPU)	00:37
	(only 2 cores)	00:38
pdurbin	off topic but... something is amiss with http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6 it seems...	00:38
sorear	13:06 < moritz_bck> two short announcements regarding the IRC logs: 1) the network connection to the logging host suffers from massive packet loss; don't be surprised if it's slow/unresponsive	00:39
diakopter	hrm	00:39
sorear	pdurbin: i think moritz is painfully aware at the moment of how much his connection is sucking	00:39
labster	Yeah. ilbot is not here at present, please leave a message with yoleaux if you need to get through to someone.	00:40
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pdurbin	ah. thanks for the info. I'll check for updates at http://colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_log/perl6	00:41
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labster	^^ see, there goes moritz' spotty connection again.	00:42
diakopter	sorear: heh, that test run left an eval-server running	00:42
pdurbin	poor guy	00:43
sorear	diakopter: see why I'm keen to fix it? :)	00:44
pdurbin	he's been making a ton of commits at https://github.com/moritz/ilbot lately too	00:44
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timotimo	what html templating engine and what web app is currently the closest to "usable"?	00:49
	i'm guessing bailador?	00:49
	and what is sensible for templating?	00:49
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tadzik	I like Template::Mojo	00:53
	but I wrote it, so I'm biased :P	00:53
timotimo	can you comment on the completeness?	00:56
	ok $err ~~ /Failed\sto\sparse\sthe\stemplate/, 'Bad template exception'; - this makes me sad :(	00:58
[Coke]	trying to get ghc up and running on a new box for pugs testing. it's complaining about the install of stringtable-atom - any suggestions?	01:00
sorear	seems it's possible to run perl6 without -Xbootclasspath	01:02
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sorear	and . should probably be removed in any event, I think that's the root cause of the calss problems	01:02
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labster	dumb question, but how do you specify that a multi method takes exactly zero arguments?	01:07
sorear	multi foo() { ... }	01:08
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ssutch	r: sub protofile($fn) { say $filename; }; module Mod is protofile('hello.proto');	01:09
camelia	rakudo 51f4eb: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Variable '$filename' is not declared␤at /tmp/cqovE4tFar:1␤------> [32msub protofile($fn) { say $filename[33m⏏[31m; }; module Mod is protofile('hello.prot[0m␤ expecting any of:␤ postfix␤»	01:09
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ssutch	r: sub protofile($fn) { say $fn; }; module Mod is protofile('hello.proto');	01:09
camelia	rakudo 51f4eb: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤'Mod' cannot inherit from 'protofile' because it is unknown.␤at /tmp/r1uQoGL77S:1␤------> ␤»	01:09
[Coke]	here are the 2 cabal install failures I get: any help appreciated.	01:09
	https://gist.github.com/coke/5843322	01:09
labster	sorear: multi method round(Int:D:) { self } gives me: ambiguous call ... :(Int:D : Mu *%_) in rakudo	01:11
colomon	19638 tests now?	01:12
labster	is that a bug, then?	01:12
sorear	labster: what other candidates do you have?	01:13
labster	:(Int : $scale = { ... }, Mu *%_)	01:13
	The Mu *%_ is automatically generated on both, it seems.	01:14
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labster	I guess that's an issue of no arguments not being more specific than an optional argument.	01:15
sorear	labster: oh, NAMED arguments	01:15
	labster: well, when you declare round(Int:D:) you do get a method which takes zero positional arguments	01:15
	Mu *%_ only matches named arguments	01:16
	it's specced that methods ignore unknown named arguments	01:16
timotimo	chtop	01:21
	...	01:21
labster	Iâ ftaghn	01:23
	Round is specced to return Int, but is there any real reason why this shouldn't work?	01:23
	r: say 10.35.round(0.5)	01:23
camelia	rakudo 51f4eb: OUTPUT«10.5␤»	01:23
	colomon is starting to suspect that throws_like does not work on rakudo jvm	01:24
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colomon	===SORRY!===	01:25
	Wrong number of arguments passed; expected 1..1, but got 0	01:25
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ssutch	how can i make a trait that will run like this: "module Foo is bar('abcdef');"	01:39
	for instance, this: https://github.com/perl6/roast/blob/master/S14-traits/package.t#L8 doesn't seem to work	01:39
	rakudo complains: Method 'declares_method' not found for invocant of class 'NQPClassHOW'	01:40
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ssutch	r: https://gist.github.com/samuraisam/5843391	01:42
camelia	rakudo 51f4eb: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Method 'declares_method' not found for invocant of class 'NQPClassHOW'␤at /tmp/3SiVVFUH5Y:15␤------> ␤»	01:42
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[Coke]	diakopter++	01:43
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timotimo	itym is(thing, :$described!	01:46
sorear	[Coke]: hey, you're TPF aren't you?	01:48
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[Coke]	sorear: I'm on the grants committee. Pretty much as little TPF as one could be. What's up?	01:50
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sorear	[Coke]: oh, I just mailed a CLA on the 18th and waiting impatiently for any indication that it was successfully delivered	01:52
JimmyZ	ssutch: this test is not passed in rakudo	01:56
[Coke]	what was the zip on the delivery?	01:56
ssutch	ah i see	01:56
	how does nativecall do it then	01:56
[Coke]	... actually, nevermind. doesn't matter, I'd never see it. :)	01:56
	... let me see if I have a google doc or something.	01:57
JimmyZ	ssutch: it does role[]	01:59
	ssutch: not role()	01:59
[Coke]	sorear: I have access to to a google doc you're not on yet.	01:59
	you'll probably hear about it before I notice.	01:59
	good luck! ;)	01:59
sorear	Thanks :D	02:02
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sorear	um. is it just me, or is there no getopt-equivalent in the java standard library?	02:07
	for something this big getopt would be a pretty glaring omission...	02:08
benabik	Java doesn't like command line arguments.	02:08
	There is gnu.getopt	02:08
	Or commons CLI	02:09
	Or, or, or... But, yes, it's all third pary.	02:09
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ssutch	r: https://gist.github.com/samuraisam/5843391	02:11
camelia	rakudo 51f4eb: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Cannot call 'trait_mod:<is>'; none of these signatures match:␤:(Mu:U $child, Mu:U $parent)␤:(Mu:U $type, :rw(:$rw)!)␤:(Mu:U $type, :nativesize(:$nativesize)!)␤:(Mu:U $type, :hidden(:$hidden)!)␤:(Mu:U $type, *%fail)␤:(Attribute:D $attr…	02:11
ssutch	hm, the the signature should match	02:12
timotimo	https://github.com/jnthn/zavolaj/blob/master/lib/NativeCall.pm6#L240 - they should look live that	02:13
	well, okay, those are all Routines	02:14
dalek	rakudo/nom: 077875a \| (Brent Laabs)++ \| src/core/Int.pm:	02:16
	rakudo/nom: add Int.round with arguments to fix RT#118545	02:16
	rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/077875a341	02:16
ssutch	even if i change the type to 'Any' it still won't find it	02:19
JimmyZ	ssutch: should be role description[Str $description]	02:20
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ssutch	r: https://gist.github.com/samuraisam/5843391	02:24
camelia	rakudo 51f4eb: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Cannot call 'trait_mod:<is>'; none of these signatures match:␤:(Mu:U $child, Mu:U $parent)␤:(Mu:U $type, :rw(:$rw)!)␤:(Mu:U $type, :nativesize(:$nativesize)!)␤:(Mu:U $type, :hidden(:$hidden)!)␤:(Mu:U $type, *%fail)␤:(Attribute:D $attr…	02:24
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ssutch	blarb!	02:26
diakopter	barble!	02:27
timotimo	i think ufo got b0rked	02:27
	and i still can't build rakudo::debugger; i'm slowly getting pretty mad at this whole deal	02:28
ssutch	is there something you use instead of 'does' on type objects?	02:34
colomon	ssutch: what are you trying to do?	02:34
ssutch	apply a trait to a Class object	02:34
	or a Module object	02:34
diakopter	"but"	02:34
colomon	you apply a role using does	02:35
	I'm not sure why you'd use "is" to apply a role to a class?	02:37
ssutch	doing something funky… for my protocol buffer library	02:37
	ssutch to use it, you say use PB; module MyIDL is proto('path/to/file.proro');	02:38
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JimmyZ	r: role protobuf[Str $file] {has $.file is rw;}; class Monkey does protobuf['hello'] { }	02:38
camelia	rakudo 51f4eb: ( no output )	02:38
ssutch	then all of the stuff defined in your proto is available	02:39
	huh, maybe that isn't possible: Method 'mixin' not found for invocant of class 'Perl6::Metamodel::ModuleHOW'	02:40
JimmyZ	r: role protobuf[Str $file] {has $.file is rw = $file;}; class Monkey does protobuf['hello'] { }; Monkey.new.file.say	02:40
camelia	rakudo 51f4eb: OUTPUT«hello␤»	02:40
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colomon	Seems like throws_like is dying somewhere in the throw / catch process.	03:00
labster	it's somewhere in the throes of dying.	03:01
colomon	;)	03:01
diakopter	heh.	03:01
	the Game of Throes	03:01
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dalek	Pugs.hs: 0d18b5d \| coke++ \| Pugs/src/Pugs/AST/Eval.hs:	03:21
	Pugs.hs: track changes needed for latest ghc	03:21
	Pugs.hs: review: https://github.com/perl6/Pugs.hs/commit/0d18b5dc92	03:21
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	[Coke] wonders how sad people will be if pugs daily runs fall off the map.	03:41
	[Coke] is getting several thousand failures on the new build box.	03:42
diakopter	[Coke]: hrm.	03:42
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diakopter	seems legit [not]	03:43
sorear	[Coke]: i would not care	03:43
[Coke]	I attempted a patch to get by the compilation error tripped on the new box. boom	03:43
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sorear	[Coke]: there's no point continuously integrating an implementation that's not changing	03:43
diakopter	(you're just tracking how much the spec changes at that point) :)	03:44
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[Coke]	hey person-who-just-updated-haskellage for pugs. If you can fix it, I'll keep testing it.	03:45
	diakopter has a guess..	03:46
diakopter	avuserow1: hi	03:46
[Coke]	something _sj2? doesn't look like they're here.	03:47
	zzz.	03:48
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diakopter	jeff shaw?	03:48
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FROGGS[mobile]	o/	06:53
sorear	o/	06:53
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labster	o/	07:11
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labster	r: round(3i)	07:24
camelia	rakudo 077875: OUTPUT«(timeout)»	07:24
labster	r: floor( 2i )	07:26
camelia	rakudo 077875: OUTPUT«maximum recursion depth exceeded␤current instr.: 'print_exception' pc 104724 (src/gen/CORE.setting.pir:46812) (src/gen/CORE.setting:9243)␤called from Sub 'Numeric' pc 224422 (src/gen/CORE.setting.pir:98010) (src/gen/CORE.setting:2992)␤called from Sub 'Numeric' pc 1…	07:26
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labster	r: (3i).floor	07:29
camelia	rakudo 077875: OUTPUT«maximum recursion depth exceeded␤current instr.: 'print_exception' pc 104724 (src/gen/CORE.setting.pir:46812) (src/gen/CORE.setting:9243)␤called from Sub 'Numeric' pc 224422 (src/gen/CORE.setting.pir:98010) (src/gen/CORE.setting:2992)␤called from Sub 'Numeric' pc 1…	07:29
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sorear	nqp-jvm: sub foo() { foo; }; foo;	07:32
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camelia	nqp-jvm: ( no output )	07:32
sorear	\o/ StackOverflowError works in rakudo-jvm	07:33
labster	good work sir	07:33
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dukeleto	sorear: are you interested in hacking on a real-time GC for parrot with me? The same algorithms should be useful for any VM, if we document them well	07:34
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labster	n: round(3i)	07:36
camelia	niecza v24-81-g6672fa2: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: floor is only defined for Reals, you have a Complex()␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 3442 (floor @ 4) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 3445 (round @ 4) ␤ at /tmp/NNh1sqRgZq line 1 (mainline @ 3) ␤ at /h…	07:36
labster	niecza++	07:36
JimmyZ	known bug?	07:37
labster	dukeleto++ for planning good documentation. I was just complaining about the lack there of (in Perl 6) earlier today.	07:38
dukeleto	labster: :)	07:38
	JimmyZ: floor() is not commonly defined on reals, but I would say that floor(a+bi) should be floor(a)+floor(b)i	07:38
	because floor() is a linear function	07:39
	s/on reals/on complexes/	07:39
sorear	linear in what sense	07:40
JimmyZ	or LTA	07:41
	LTA bug, maybe	07:41
labster	Well, infinite loops are definitely LTA.	07:41
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JimmyZ	afk	07:41
labster	I think complex floor/ceiling/round are certainly possible, it's just -- I can't think of a situation where it would be what you want mathematically. sorear? anyone with significant maths?	07:42
sorear	labster: i cannot think of a single way in which floor is linear, or a good use case for complex floor	07:43
	and since there's no obviously best definition of complex floor, I'd prefer calling it undefined and letting the user define their needed definition	07:44
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dukeleto	sorear: floor(ab+c)=floor(a)floor(b)+floor(c) or am I mistaken?	07:50
	sorear: that would seemingly make it linear	07:50
	sorear: but i understand wanting to leave floor(a+b*i) undefined	07:50
labster	according to google, the use case seems to be mostly in formatting output. Mathematica defines Floor on complex values.	07:54
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sorear	dukeleto: you are mistaken. consider a=1, b=c=0.6	07:59
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sisar	o/	08:06
	how do i make the prompt ">" in the rakudo REPL colored ?	08:08
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FROGGS[mobile]	sisar: there is a term::ansicolor module	08:10
sisar	FROGGS[mobile]: i thought that was for printing color output, not for controlling the REPL's color	08:12
FROGGS[mobile]	ahh now I understand	08:12
sisar	:)	08:12
sorear	modify your rakudo to include escape sequences in the prompt	08:12
FROGGS[mobile]	dunno where the repl code is though	08:13
sisar	sorear: how do i do that ? Need more pointers	08:13
sorear	https://github.com/perl6/nqp/blob/master/src/HLL/Compiler.nqp#L184	08:15
FROGGS[mobile]	and you can steal the escape sequences from term::ansicolor	08:16
sorear	could add an override to src/Perl6/Compiler	08:16
	man console_codes is always a good bet too	08:16
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sisar	FROGGS[mobile], sorear: ok, makes sense now. I'll give it a try. Thanks.	08:16
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masak	good antenoon, #perl6	08:48
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FROGGS_	hi masak	08:51
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sorear	'night, #perl6	08:58
FROGGS_	night sorear	08:59
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masak	good night, sorear	09:19
FROGGS_	masak: what do you think about passing the match (as $/) to the *_directions as the first (and only arg in most cases) ?	09:21
	I think I'll show you later how I'd do it	09:22
masak	I think I'd have to see it to be sure.	09:23
	hm, dagurval++ brings up a good point: should %u wrap values around some 2**N limit?	09:26
FROGGS_	yeah, that is what I think too	09:26
masak	I definitely think we should support %u. question is how.	09:26
FROGGS_	hmmm, dunno if should be limited	09:27
	feels strange to have bigints in core and then no way to printf it	09:28
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masak	I think the guiding principle should be that we want to have great bigint support.	09:34
	rn: say sprintf '%u', -5	09:34
camelia	rakudo 077875: OUTPUT«4294967291␤»	09:35
	..niecza v24-81-g6672fa2: OUTPUT«-5␤»	09:35
dukeleto	+1 to great bigint support :)	09:35
masak	hm. maybe follow Parrot/Rakudo here for once. Niecza's is saner but sort of defeats the purpose of %u.	09:35
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FROGGS_	what about %.64u, %.32u, %.*u, where the default is what perl5/C does ?	09:38
masak	sounds good.	09:39
	do C and perl5 really have a single default?	09:39
FROGGS_	no idea	09:40
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JimmyZ	what's it? sprintf?	09:40
masak	I have a feeling this is one of those "defaults" that went through a 16, 32, 64 evolution over the years.	09:40
	JimmyZ: yes, sprintf and %u.	09:41
JimmyZ	well, I see %lld and %ld in APR, which one will be used depends on platform/compiler	09:42
	%lld can't be used in MSVC	09:42
masak	sigh this is tricky.	09:43
JimmyZ	well ,%lld cant be used in virtual studio 2012, said MSDN. But actually, it only can be used in printf, not sprintf.	09:44
	s/cant/can/	09:45
masak	I think it will be hard to do this without introducing "yet another standard".	09:48
	which is why it's useful to do it from first principles as much as possible.	09:49
	"sprintf: an axiomatic approach" :)	09:51
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timotimo	genius idea of the day: compile the JVM with emscripten, so that the user doesn't have to allow a pesky java applett to run!	10:36
JimmyZ	where is the JVM source???	10:37
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masak	hm, is this worth replying to? https://twitter.com/marcusramberg/status/348703648932573184	10:58
colomon	no	10:58
masak	I believe the three settings "harmed", "helped", and "not affected" are all true in some sensible mixture.	10:58
	but tweets are not long enough.	10:59
JimmyZ	nope	10:59
masak	ok, will proceed to not reply, then.	10:59
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colomon	'"harmed", "helped", and "not affected" are all true in some sensible mixture.': exactly	11:00
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JimmyZ	time will explain it :P	11:01
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colomon	I mean, for sure taking 13+ years to do the next major version has harmed Perl. It's a no-brainer.	11:01
	But, at the same time, it's not really relevant to anything, either.	11:01
masak	there's always been a complex give-and-take between p5 and p6. the two communities are not independent and isolated.	11:02
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masak	so saying "p6 has harmed p5" is a bit like saying "the spleen has harmed the liver".	11:02
	also, it's possible/easy to forget that the relative sizes of the two communities are ridiculously different.	11:03
	if you think in terms of deployed code and active users.	11:03
colomon	it seems to me very fair to say the early years of the p6 project were badly borked	11:03
	but that doesn't really tell you anything about what p6 is today.	11:03
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masak	it took a while for the p6 project to actually grow a development cycle that worked.	11:04
colomon	it might tell you something meaningful about how to approach perl 6	11:04
	sorry, approach perl 7	11:04
masak	colomon: you do know that there won't be a Perl 7, right? :)	11:05
jnthn	Right, the spec says we converge on 6.6.6, iirc? :P	11:05
masak	jnthn: no, that's the "if we're unlucky" scenario :)	11:06
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masak	"In fact, we probably wouldn't end up converging on a version number of 2*PI as the RFC suggests, but rather on 6.6.6, which would be rather unfortunate." http://www.perl6.org/archive/doc/design/apo/A01.html	11:06
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flaviusb	Also seems fair to note the Perl Renaissance, Modern Perl etc as being influenced by learnings from the p6 endeavour, in case people wonder about the "helped" bit.	11:08
colomon	certainly, perl 6 has both hurt and helped p5.	11:08
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masak	and not affected it at all.	11:09
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	moritz is back-ish from behind a network line with massive package loss	11:10
moritz	sadly the clogs aren't back :/	11:10
masak	but rather than focus on crap like what people say at Ruby conferences, I'd find it much more useful to focus on Perl conferences, and the fruitful cross-pollinations and collaborations that happen there.	11:11
	that looks to me like a thriving bicameral community, not a limping one.	11:11
	jnthn read that as "bicaramel"	11:11
masak	n-thly, it's not a zero-sum game.	11:11
	lots of people are involved in Perl 6 who would not have been similarly involved in Perl 5.	11:12
	I'm one.	11:12
	moritz too	11:12
jnthn	Same.	11:12
moritz	I never went beyond doc patches and pure p5 module patches in p5 core	11:12
colomon	Here's the thing: the right way to say it is the Perl community as a whole bungled the next generation project. It's not a like a small group of perl 6 programmers came in and messed things up for perl 5. And acting like it is is grotesquely unfair to the current perl 6 developers, none of whom were even around the first 4 years.	11:12
moritz	and I don't think that would have changed	11:13
masak	colomon: I think that "bungled" is too strong. it's ongoing, it's a healthy project. people on the outside have difficulties seeing why it takes so long.	11:14
colomon	I meant that as "bungled the early stages", sorry	11:15
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masak	even that is risky to put in a press release :P	11:15
colomon	A more sensible process probably would have had a much less ambitious perl 6 that was finished a decade ago.	11:17
JimmyZ	will PHP6 hurts PHP5.x ? :P	11:18
timotimo	there will be nothing left to hurt when people see the brilliance and elegance of running your web apps as java applets directly in the user's browser	11:19
colomon	But the thing is... that was 10-13 years ago. Back then they made the super ambitious choice. Complaining about that when the team (formed since then) is finally getting close is beyond pointless.	11:20
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masak	colomon: Perl 6 started out as less ambitious. then people sent in 361 RFCs.	11:20
	turns out people liked Perl so much they wanted to improve it all kinds of ways. :)	11:21
JimmyZ	I think "will Perl6 hurt perl5" is the same as "will C hurt perl5?"	11:21
masak	also, a smaller and more conservative change would have resulted in a Python 3 kind of situation.	11:21
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masak	(still took quite some time, but now there's little momentum and even less reason to upgrade, despite the whole community pointing to p3k and nodding meaningfully)	11:22
pdurbin	I have a ton of respect for the ambition of Perl 6. For work I'm getting more into Java and it's clear to me that tons and tons of people are working on the language. Far more, I'd say, that work on Perl	11:22
	s/that/than/	11:23
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masak	well, marcusramberg sees the p5 part of the community, but not necessarily the p6 part of it.	11:32
	I guess that partially explains his view.	11:32
timotimo	but the p6 part isn't even that big ;)	11:32
masak	right -- it's hard to miss :)	11:32
	er, it's easy to miss.	11:33
	masak switches brain back on	11:33
masak	train &	11:33
pdurbin	the thing I always think of is that Ruby was a reaction to Perl 4. of course it's better than Perl 4	11:34
	I guess I'm just reacting to some of the replies to that tweet	11:34
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moritz	I have a new search backend for the IR clogs that you can all test at http://tina.perlgeek.de/perl6/search	11:38
	feedback welcome :-)	11:38
jnthn	moritz: I seem to have trouble connecting to it	11:39
	ah, now it worked	11:39
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moritz	jnthn: yes, lots of packet loss at the moment :(	11:39
	which is also why the logging doesn't work	11:39
jnthn	moritz: yes, when I glanced the log on my phone this morning I was like "whee, quiet night...not much backlog to catch up on"	11:41
pdurbin	moritz: yes! I saw you mention it at http://irclog.perlgeek.de/ilbot/2013-06-22 ... great news!	11:41
jnthn	:P	11:41
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moritz	jnthn: I've put up a notice	11:42
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jeckyhl	Hi, I'm trying to build Rakudo/JVM on Windows. Something went wrong on "Stage jar", i've got java.lang.UnsupportedOperationException: 'posix:permissions' not supported as initial attribute. Did someone alreay experienced this ?	11:43
	JimmyZ can't connect tina	11:44
jnthn	jeckyhl: I've seen that but only when trying to run the tests...	11:45
	jeckyhl: Can you gist/nopaste me the output?	11:45
	moritz++	11:46
jeckyhl	@jnthn i was runing nmake test indeed	11:46
jnthn	jeckyhl: Yeah. The test/spectest targets have been set up to use an eval client/server thing for startup performance. Unfortunately, it doesn't work out on Windows yet.	11:47
JimmyZ	http://tina.perlgeek.de/perl6/search works now?	11:47
jnthn	jeckyhl: I didn't get to trying to fix it yet.	11:47
	jeckyhl: The good news is that the perl6 you get out will, standalone, work.	11:47
	Or should, at least...	11:48
jeckyhl	@jntnn great !	11:48
	rakudo>nmake install gives " NMAKE : fatal error U1073: cannot get 'install'	11:50
timotimo	is someone here familiar with java applets? it seems like i can easily invoke code in the applet from javascript, but i can't seem to find out how to signal something to the outside html/js world from within the applet	11:50
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jnthn	jeckyhl: Yes, that's still todo. Be aware that the JVM support is still very, very much a work in progress.	11:51
moritz	I think that's by (security) design	11:51
	(that was for timotimo)	11:51
jnthn	jeckyhl: We're moving pretty fast on it, though. ;)	11:51
timotimo	moritz: so, how do i put a Java Applet version of the rakudo evalserver into a website, push code in from JS and get the result back out when it's finished?	11:52
	would i have to poll an attribute of the applet?	11:52
jeckyhl	@jnthn It's worth waiting ! I will test again soon.	11:52
moritz	timotimo: no idea, sorry	11:57
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sriliam	hi	11:59
moritz	hello sriliam	11:59
sriliam	New to perl6 and a kind of dubitative : does this project is sustained by larry wall or anyone else from other perl	12:00
	?	12:00
jnthn	sisar: Larry is Perl 6 language designer.	12:04
	oops	12:04
	sriliam: ^^	12:04
sriliam	Thanks jnthn	12:04
	OK, so what about compatibility ?	12:04
	There were object reference which had been a different when transition from perl4 to perl5.	12:05
	When perl6 test passed : is there is a transition on the road, or does Perl6 will be used both with Perl5 ?	12:06
jnthn	sriliam: Not backwards compatible; Perl 5 will continue to be developed/maintained a long way into the future too. :)	12:07
	sriliam: We're working on various kinds of interop between the two so you don't have to ditch existing Perl 5 code in order to start writing Perl 6 code too.	12:08
hoelzro	timotimo: I could, but I really did the pygments thing because I wanted GH support for Perl6	12:09
jeckyhl	jnthn: Rakudo-JVM buid sucessfully (with nmake v11 / Java JRE1.7 64 bits)	12:09
hoelzro	and I'm much more keen on Python than JS =)	12:09
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sriliam	"Not backwards compatible" ??? What about XS code with perl5 ?	12:09
	^^ In perl6, of course : what about xs code in perl6 ?	12:10
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sriliam	"e're working on various kinds of interop between [...] start writing Perl 6 code too" : ok, understood.	12:12
	I'm always worring about "we will done all for you ..." !!	12:12
	:)	12:12
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timotimo	hoelzro: well, codemirror is used in gist and the github on-line editor ;)	12:14
	there's of course no obligation for you to do it	12:14
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timotimo	sriliam: Perl5-XS is kind of hard to interop with. currently there's a module in the works called "rakudo-v5", which will let you write perl5 code in side perl6 and the other way around when you're using rakudo, but that won't give you XS	12:15
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hoelzro	grr	12:16
	timotimo: it's the only highlighter used for gists?	12:16
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timotimo	oh, wait, gist doesn't have codemirror, does it?	12:16
	sriliam: MoarVM, on the other hand, which will become a rakudo backend, is going to use libperl, so there will be some degree of using XS in perl5 code together with perl6	12:16
	hoelzro: you get as-you-type highlighting on gists if you turn on the "ACE editor" i suppose	12:17
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timotimo	but it's nod codemirror, it seems!?	12:17
jnthn	A bunch of the things you might do with XS in Perl 5, you can do with NativeCall in Perl 6.	12:17
timotimo	it's apparently thi: #lives_ok { eager $req.params<hello> }, 'Request data parses without dying';	12:17
	#is ~$resp.content, $data, 'POST data string roundtrips correctly';	12:18
	... wat.	12:18
	#is $req.params<a>, '1;b=2', 'application/x-www-form-urlencoded POST data should only split on &';	12:18
	it's apparently this: http://ace.ajax.org/#nav=about (for real this time)	12:18
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sriliam	ok timotimo : read you carefully : MoarVM the second answer is more interresting. Thanks	12:18
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timotimo	oh, i forgot XS was used for legitimate purposes, too. in that case, you can use NativeCall on perl6	12:19
	i thought XS was only for doing crazy/dirty stuff with the internal state of perl5	12:19
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timotimo	http://ace.ajax.org/tool/mode_creator.html - this seems like a pretty darn cool tool	12:20
sriliam	No timotimo : the most XS deal is efficiency !!! NativeCall talks to me.	12:20
	:)	12:20
	timotimo has never used perl5, to be honest	12:20
sriliam	lol	12:21
	And even perl4 ... XS are very old.	12:21
timotimo	i should be more precise: perl6 is the only perl i've ever tried	12:21
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hoelzro	I'm hoping that having "regular" syntax highlighting on GH will inspire someone else to port my efforts to CodeMirror	12:23
sriliam	timotimo : Ok, you lost nothing with other versions will be a bad joke. Really.	12:23
hoelzro	=)	12:23
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timotimo	i was wrong, github uses ACE everywhere, not codemirror	12:25
sriliam	Ok, another question for you hackers ... Does recursive programming works with perl6. It does with perl5 but very pool experiments results.	12:25
timotimo	you can recurse, but the compiler will not (yet?) do things like tail-call optimization, if you mean that	12:26
sriliam	Read you timotimo : need to go. Thanks for you all !!!! Perl[1-6] are the best languages !!!!!	12:28
timotimo	have a good time! :)	12:29
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timotimo	now that's what i call enthusiasm :)	12:29
	hoelzro: this ACE mode creator editor tool thingie looks super nice, i think i'll spend at least a few minutes toying around with it! :)	12:30
hoelzro	cool =)	12:30
timotimo	from the example i'm looking at, it seems pretty limited, though; as in flat	12:35
	oh, no, i was wrong	12:35
dalek	nqp: f3cab58 \| jnthn++ \| src/vm/ (3 files):	12:35
	nqp: Add nqp::getpid for both JVM and Parrot.	12:35
	nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/f3cab58fb7	12:35
xlat	is Grammar::Debugger working on W7?	12:40
jnthn	xlat: I know Grammar::Tracer will work at least, but it emits ANSI color codes, so needs something like ansicon	12:40
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xlat	ok, I install ansicon, and I see colors with Tracer which works	12:41
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timotimo	maybe Term::ANSIColor should check at compile-time what OS it's being run on and give stub methods that do nothing on windows?	12:41
	or look for an environment variable i guess	12:41
jnthn	timotimo: Well, I'd pondered a Term::WinColor and then around the two a Term::PortaColor at some point :)	12:42
xlat	jnthn: but when I use Debugger, as soon as I try to single-step it throws an exception	12:42
jnthn	xlat: That may not be Windows specific :(	12:42
	xlat: Did you try using the perl6-debug that is included with Rakudo *? It also knows how to do grammar single-stepping and should be working.	12:43
xlat	jnthn: I'll try now...	12:44
jnthn	Sorry 'bout the grammar::debugger bug. That's almost certainly my fault... :/	12:44
xlat	jnthn: the error msg: http://pastebin.com/DRQitCje	12:45
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jnthn	ugh	12:45
	xlat: Filed it in issue tracker	12:47
dalek	nqp: 7fa12e2 \| jnthn++ \| src/vm/parrot/QAST/Operations.nqp:	12:48
	nqp: Fix nqp::getpid on Parrot.	12:48
	nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/7fa12e2b59	12:48
	rakudo/nom: c050747 \| jnthn++ \| src/core/Range.pm:	12:51
	rakudo/nom: Port Range reify fast-path.	12:51
	rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/c050747edb	12:51
	rakudo/nom: 7f0af9b \| jnthn++ \| / (2 files):	12:51
	rakudo/nom: Use new nqp::getpid() op for $*PID.	12:51
	rakudo/nom:	12:51
	rakudo/nom: Means $*PID is now available on JVM backend also.	12:51
	rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/7f0af9bca5	12:51
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timotimo	it doesn't seem like ACE allows capturing in the tokens, so heredocs will practically be impossible	13:00
xlat	jnthn: debugger's coloration is impressive!	13:02
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xlat	jnthn: tryed perl6-debug but still got the same error, my script: https://gist.github.com/xlat/5be8c961d21b6350a2eb	13:11
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jnthn	xlat: Wait, the debugger tells you the same error? Does it tell you which line?	13:15
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jnthn	xlat: You did remove the "use Grammar::Debugger" from your script before running it under perl6-debug?	13:16
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jnthn	If not then you're debugging Grammar::Debugger... ;)	13:16
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dalek	nqp: cf6cfb3 \| jnthn++ \| src/vm/jvm/runtime/org/perl6/nqp/runtime/Ops.java:	13:23
	nqp: Implement accepts_type handling.	13:23
	nqp:	13:23
	nqp: This is the primitive that makes things like subset types work.	13:23
	nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/cf6cfb3f00	13:23
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xlat	jnthn: u were right, I was debugging Grammar::Debugger ^^	13:43
jnthn	.oO( yo dawg... )	13:44
masak	yo debawg.	13:51
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timotimo	how confident can one be in the restricted setting?	13:55
	r: say dir();	13:56
camelia	rakudo 7f0af9: OUTPUT«IO::Path<star> IO::Path<src> IO::Path<.subversion> IO::Path<.bashrc> IO::Path<nom-inst1> IO::Path<toqast> IO::Path<test3.pl> IO::Path<.profile> IO::Path<t> IO::Path<nom-inst2> IO::Path<nom-inst> IO::Path<toqast-inst> IO::Path<toqast-inst2> IO::Path<examples> IO::Pa…	13:56
timotimo	r: slurp("test3.pl")	13:56
camelia	rakudo 7f0af9: ( no output )	13:56
timotimo	r: slurp("test3.pl").say	13:56
camelia	rakudo 7f0af9: OUTPUT«use Test;␤␤{␤ "fooxbar" ~~ /x/;␤ is $/.prematch, "foo", ".prematch works";␤ is $/.postmatch, "bar", ".postmatch works";␤␤ is ("foo" ~~ /(f)/).kv.join("\|"), '0\|f', '.kv sees positional';␤ is ("foo" ~~ /$<x>=[f]/).kv.join("\|"), 'x\|f', '.kv sees names';…	13:56
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timotimo	r: dir("/etc").say	13:57
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camelia	rakudo 7f0af9: OUTPUT«IO::Path</etc/terminfo> IO::Path</etc/issue.net> IO::Path</etc/login.defs> IO::Path</etc/issue> IO::Path</etc/rcS.d> IO::Path</etc/shells> IO::Path</etc/logcheck> IO::Path</etc/sysctl.d> IO::Path</etc/python> IO::Path</etc/resolv.conf> IO::Path</etc/locale.gen> IO:…	13:57
timotimo	huh.	13:57
	r: rename("foo", "bar")	13:57
camelia	rakudo 7f0af9: OUTPUT«rename is disallowed in restricted setting␤ in sub restricted at src/RESTRICTED.setting:2␤ in sub rename at src/RESTRICTED.setting:12␤ in block at /tmp/IRYbZjk3oE:1␤␤»	13:57
timotimo	righto.	13:58
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timotimo	so only the things that are supposed to write or modify are blocked	13:58
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timotimo	r: qx{echo hello}.say	13:59
camelia	rakudo 7f0af9: OUTPUT«qx, qqx is disallowed in restricted setting␤ in sub restricted at src/RESTRICTED.setting:2␤ in sub QX at src/RESTRICTED.setting:9␤ in block at /tmp/MuJlWm3Ybh:1␤␤»	13:59
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timotimo	r: my Mu $pio := nqp::open(nqp::unbox_s("echo 'exploit' > harmless_testfile.txt"), "rp"); $pio.close;	14:00
camelia	rakudo 7f0af9: ( no output )	14:00
timotimo	r: slurp("harmless_testfile.txt").say	14:00
camelia	rakudo 7f0af9: OUTPUT«exploit␤␤»	14:00
timotimo	:(	14:00
masak	Perl 6 is exploit-complete. a restricted setting is just a guideline, not a real protection. nor can it ever be.	14:01
timotimo	so for a try.perl6.org one would want a java applet or a pure-js interpreter.	14:02
masak	yes, definitely.	14:03
	timotimo shudders at the thought of using swing	14:04
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timotimo	how can Task::Star fail its tests?	14:14
	dunno if i asked that on this channel already: does compiling MoarVM with emscripten sound sensible?	14:16
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timotimo	r: dir("t")	14:21
camelia	rakudo 7f0af9: ( no output )	14:21
timotimo	r: dir("t").say	14:21
camelia	rakudo 7f0af9: OUTPUT«IO::Path<t/fileops.t> IO::Path<t/ImportTest.pm6> IO::Path<t/jsync.data> IO::Path<t/frontend-std.t> IO::Path<t/run_spectests_p5> IO::Path<t/update_passing_test_data.pl> IO::Path<t/jsync.t> IO::Path<t/spectest_p5.data> IO::Path<t/clr.t> IO::Path<t/fudgeandrun> IO::Pa…	14:21
timotimo	r: dir("t").grep(*.Str eq "t")	14:22
camelia	rakudo 7f0af9: ( no output )	14:22
timotimo	r: dir("t").grep($_ eq "t")	14:22
camelia	rakudo 7f0af9: OUTPUT«use of uninitialized value of type Any in string context in block at /tmp/nhuxRjNb_L:1␤␤»	14:22
FROGGS_	masak: https://gist.github.com/FROGGS/5845176	14:22
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timotimo	the dirwalk in ufo is recursing into itself endlessly, because apparently dir("foo", :test(*)) is returning foo now, too	14:22
FROGGS_	masak: I think it is easier to maintain when the directives differ more (like they would do for binary for example)	14:23
timotimo	r: dir("t", :test(*)).say	14:23
camelia	rakudo 7f0af9: OUTPUT«IO::Path<t/..> IO::Path<t/fileops.t> IO::Path<t/ImportTest.pm6> IO::Path<t/jsync.data> IO::Path<t/frontend-std.t> IO::Path<t/run_spectests_p5> IO::Path<t/update_passing_test_data.pl> IO::Path<t/jsync.t> IO::Path<t/spectest_p5.data> IO::Path<t/clr.t> IO::Path<t/fudg…	14:23
timotimo	even worse, .. is contained in there!	14:23
jnthn	Everything matches whatever, I guess	14:24
timotimo	yeah. it must have changed some time in the past, though	14:25
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timotimo	r: dir("t", :test(*))[0].cleanup.say	14:27
camelia	rakudo 7f0af9: OUTPUT«IO::Path<t/..>␤»	14:27
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masak	FROGGS_: looking.	14:30
FROGGS_	(20 lines more in total)	14:30
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masak	FROGGS_: nice. it looks good, overall.	14:34
	FROGGS_: suggestion: 'sprintf', not 'SprintF'.	14:35
	FROGGS_: also, would it be possible to move the args checks from the TOP rule to the TOP action method?	14:35
FROGGS_	masak: that should work, yes	14:35
masak	I don't see immediately why $*PADDING is needed, rather than just something like $<size><padding>	14:37
	er, $<size><padding>.ast	14:37
timotimo	masak: https://gist.github.com/timo/a7f69bb57820a9e5ce88 <- opinions?	14:38
FROGGS_	masak: well, $*PADDING defines the default padding (for example if there is no size)	14:38
	masak: I updated the gist btw	14:39
	timotimo: I would use File::Spec.updir instead of '/..', because it can be something else on other systems	14:40
masak	timotimo: looks good.	14:40
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masak	modulo what FROGGS_ just said :)	14:41
	FROGGS_: I'm not too fond of dynamicals where something else works just as well, is all.	14:41
FROGGS_	true	14:43
cognominal	hi, is there a way to huffmanize this action : make $/{$/.keys[0]}.ast	14:44
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jnthn	cognominal: I'm...not sure that makes sense? "look up a randomish key in the match object"?	14:45
	Hashes aren't ordered in any way, so .keys[0] could give any of the keys	14:45
cognominal	if the rule is something like : A \| B \| C \| D	14:46
	...it does make sense	14:46
	oops, I forgot the <>	14:46
	replay: if the rule is something like : <A> \| <B> \| <C> \| C<D>	14:47
	arf	14:47
timotimo	FROGGS_: good point. masak do you have a moment to do that change yourself or should i make an updated patch? because i'll be afk for a bit now.	14:47
cognominal	<A> \| <B> \| <C> \| <D>	14:47
timotimo	well, bbl.	14:48
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JimmyZ	cognominal: https://gist.github.com/FROGGS/5845176#file-sprintf-pl-L138 like this?	14:49
cognominal	Jimmyz, that's exactly the natural form of what I want to huffmanize. I should have started by showing something like that.	14:51
	doing make $<rule>.ast for each rule is exactely what I want to avoid.	14:52
FROGGS_	bbl, masak you can apply my patch from the gist if you want...	14:52
cognominal	also because I need to modify the action each time I had a rule to the alternation.	14:52
JimmyZ	cognominal: you may want ```for my $key (keys $/) { make $<$key>.ast; }```	14:53
cognominal	on the other hand, like jnthn said, but with other words make $/{$/.keys[0]}.ast is cryptic	14:53
JimmyZ	or something	14:54
cognominal	that sort of code come over and over. Probably some syntactic sugar could be invented.	14:55
	not that I think of one out of hand.	14:56
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cognominal	make $\|/.ast # probably, that's what I would like to write	14:58
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cognominal	but probably such huffmanization should address rules with quantifiers as well like <A> \| <B>+ \| <C>*	15:00
	may be I just need some routine.	15:00
	* need to write	15:00
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masak	timotimo: I leave it to you to make the patch. I don't feel involved enough in the issue at hand.	15:22
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timotimo	OK	15:29
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Ulti	sorear I'm only using IO::Pty::HalfDuplex because it's part of try.rakudo.org I'll try and work out what's happening, the tests hang and eventually fail on the first spawn()	15:59
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[Coke]	ok, the last pugs change I made didn't break everything on the original testing box, that's good.	16:29
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pmichaud	cognominal: ( <A> \| <B> \| <C> \| <D> ) there are several ways around it	16:48
	one is to use protoregexes	16:48
	another is to use aliases	16:48
	for example	16:48
	<X=A> \| <X=B> \| <X=C> \| <X=D> and then make $<X>.ast	16:49
cognominal	that's nice, I like it.	16:49
	pmichaud: what's about protoregex(es)? And what is the plural of regex btw?	16:50
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pmichaud	proto regex foo {...}; proto regex foo:sym<A> { <A> }; protoregex foo:sym<B> { <B> }; ... then each foo: candidate can have its own action method (and you know what the matching subrule is)	16:52
cognominal	nice to know. But pretty verbose in my case	16:53
	pmichaud++	16:53
	or <X = <A> \| <B> \| <C> \| <D> > I suppose	16:55
pmichaud	I don't think that works	16:56
cognominal	oh, that should be $<X> = [ <A> \| <B> \| <C> \| <D> ]	16:57
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pmichaud	that doesn't give you $<X>.ast, though.	17:00
	$<X> simply matches whatever text is matched by whatever is in the brackets.	17:00
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pmichaud	s/matches/contains/	17:01
cognominal	indeed	17:02
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cognominal	so should I interpret you answer as "I think it should work" or "I think it should not work". With my syntax interpreted as some inline rule as opposed to mere capturing.	17:06
pmichaud	which answer?	17:06
cognominal	[18:56] <pmichaud> I don't think that works	17:07
pmichaud	I know that <X=A> \| <X=B> \| <X=C> \| <X=D> will work, with $<X>.ast containing the .ast of whichever subrule matched	17:07
	<X = <A> \| <B> \| <C> \| <D> > isn't valid syntax afaik	17:07
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pmichaud	I'm afk again	17:09
cognominal	that's gives: Quote words construct too complex to use in a regex	17:10
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jnthn	Did you accidentally a space after a "<"?	17:11
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cognominal	jnthn, what do you want to say?	17:16
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jnthn	cognominal: The erorr you reported.	17:19
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jnthn	cognominal: I think you may have typed < foo=bar> or so, not <foo=bar>. The space after the < turns it into quote words.	17:20
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cognominal	jnthn, no that's expected. I just said to pmichaud what was the error message for the example I gave that pmichaud said it would not work.	17:21
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diakopter	what do you people think about being 1/8 done with this century?	17:22
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jnthn	Seems I've got a talk accepted at YAPC::EU :)	17:37
masak	\o/	17:38
	diakopter: I am disappointed at the rate of human colonization across our galaxy.	17:39
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cognominal	masak: I am afraid that people think that's an alternative to fixing our problems in our home planet.	17:42
masak	it's not an either-or thing, IMHO. both are highly important.	17:44
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cognominal	well, I shoud reformulate in "fixing our problems in our culture". colonization, extra-terrestrial or not does not fix these problems	17:48
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lue	.oO(Having another planet to overpopulate would give us more time. Alternatively, underwater colonies)	17:55
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masak	overpopulation in general becomes a slightly smaller problem when there's more than one planet to choose from.	17:58
FROGGS_	UFP WTF!	18:00
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FROGGS_	masak: any objections left about sprintf::Grammar?	18:01
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sorear	JimmyZ: http://hg.openjdk.java.net/	18:05
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sorear	timotimo: https://jdk6.java.net/plugin2/liveconnect/#JAVA_TO_JS	18:06
	timotimo: the design I'm planning to implement is to have an invisible applet that responds to evaluation methods, and implement the repl in html/js	18:10
	that way you get all the nice browser features like right click, copy for free	18:10
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lizmat	good *, #perl6!	18:49
cognominal	r: grammar A { token TOP { <a> \|\| <b> } ; token a { '[' ~ ']' <[ab]> }; token b { '[b-]' } }; A.parse: '[b-]'	18:49
camelia	rakudo 7f0af9: OUTPUT«Unable to parse expression in a; couldn't find final ']'␤ in any FAILGOAL at src/stage2/QRegex.nqp:1037␤ in regex a at /tmp/zMlANBrRlX:1␤ in regex TOP at /tmp/zMlANBrRlX:1␤ in method parse at src/gen/CORE.setting:10697␤ in block at /tmp/zMlANBrRlX:1␤␤»…	18:49
cognominal	r: grammar A { token TOP { <a> \|\| <b> } ; token a { '[' ~ ']' <[ab]> }; token b { '[b]' } }; A.parse: '[b]'	18:49
camelia	rakudo 7f0af9: ( no output )	18:49
cognominal	r: grammar A { token TOP { <a> \|\| <b> } ; token a { '[' ~ ']' <[ab]> }; token b { '[b]' } }; say A.parse: '[b]'	18:50
camelia	rakudo 7f0af9: OUTPUT«｢[b]｣␤ a => ｢[b]｣␤␤»	18:50
sorear	o/ cognominal, lizmat !	18:51
lizmat	o/ sorear!	18:51
cognominal	o/ everyone	18:52
	with xlat-home, I wonder why the first parse fails and the second succeeds	18:52
lizmat	o/ cognominal!	18:52
cognominal	o/ lizmat, sorear	18:52
colomon	\o	18:54
lizmat	so how are we on the percentage of spectests passing on the JVM?	18:54
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lizmat	colomon!	18:54
[Coke]	lizmat: https://github.com/coke/perl6-roast-data/blob/master/perl6_pass_rates 66.62% as of yesterday.	18:55
	today's run isn't done yet.	18:55
lizmat	wow… 2/3 passes, wow!	18:56
[Coke]	(that's 2/3 of the parrot impl.)	18:56
	jnthn eagerly awaits today's run	18:57
xlat-home	r: grammar A { token TOP { <a> \|\| <b> } ; token a { '[' ~ ']' <[a]> }; token b { '[b-]' } }; A.parse: '[b-]'	18:58
camelia	rakudo 7f0af9: ( no output )	18:58
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xlat-home	grammar A { token TOP { <a> \|\| <b> } ; token a { '[' ~ ']' <[ab]> }; token b { '[b-]' } }; A.parse: '[b-]'	18:58
	r: grammar A { token TOP { <a> \|\| <b> } ; token a { '[' ~ ']' <[ab]> }; token b { '[b-]' } }; A.parse: '[b-]'	18:59
camelia	rakudo 7f0af9: OUTPUT«Unable to parse expression in a; couldn't find final ']'␤ in any FAILGOAL at src/stage2/QRegex.nqp:1037␤ in regex a at /tmp/nZD3WlU1i2:1␤ in regex TOP at /tmp/nZD3WlU1i2:1␤ in method parse at src/gen/CORE.setting:10697␤ in block at /tmp/nZD3WlU1i2:1␤␤»…	18:59
colomon	for those who remember me mentioning that my wife had just bought $450 worth of bookshelves while I was at YAPC::NA, we've just started assembling them. :)	18:59
xlat-home	just changing <[ab]> -> <[a]> make it works, but:	18:59
	r: grammar A { token TOP { <a> \|\| <b> } ; token a { '[' <[ab]> ']' }; token b { '[b-]' } }; A.parse: '[b-]'	19:00
camelia	rakudo 7f0af9: ( no output )	19:00
xlat-home	changing A ~B C syntax to a A C B make it works, why ?	19:00
lizmat	colomon: if your wife did that, I would assume there is a good reason to get the shelves :-)	19:00
cognominal	afk& # need some walk to think clearly	19:02
lizmat	.oO{ you can only live inbetween piles of books for so long}	19:02
	cognominal: walk clearly, think some!	19:03
pmichaud	xlat-home: the ~ construct adds a "fail the match" component	19:04
colomon	lizmat: you can only live so many years without unboxing all your books from the last move...	19:04
lizmat	true: in our case, it's about 12 years now…(that some of our books have been in boxes, and still are :-(	19:05
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colomon	lizmat: scary thing is these are only intended to be a stop gap measure until we can afford cover an entire wall of the living room with IKEA bookshelves. ;)	19:05
xlat-home	pmichaud: thank u, that sounds ok, my bad.	19:05
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colomon	*afford to	19:05
lizmat	is IKEA that expensive in the US then?	19:06
colomon	if you buy an entire wall's worth of bookshelves with glass doors, yes.	19:06
lizmat	glass doors? for bookshelves?	19:07
Juerd	Books are supposed to have dust covering the top.	19:07
	That's how you gauge how long they've been there. Without it, how would you know?	19:07
lizmat	ok, yes, then I can see they can run into some paper… our IKEA bookshelves are all without doors (Billy)	19:07
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diakopter	our IKEA bookshelves fell apart while moving	19:08
geekosaur	but glass doors keep the cats from using the books as convenient claw sharpeners	19:08
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lizmat	eh…. you should at least take the shelves out	19:08
diakopter	yes, it was an extremely poor moving van packing job	19:09
lizmat	our Perl library lives in Ikea shelves, and has moved many a time to a conference or workshop	19:09
diakopter	like, miserably	19:09
lizmat	:-(	19:09
	geekosaur: get educated cats :-)	19:09
colomon	lizmat: Billy is what we were looking at, I think. Also, corner units at each end of the wall to be covered by bookshelves.	19:10
geekosaur	maggie had trouble remembering from week to week not to try to eat candle flames; book learning was just a bit beyond her :p	19:10
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sorear	fun, nqp-runtime.jar now contains a compile-time reference to sun.*	19:18
jnthn	sorear: I figured the only way to know how that would fly was to do it.	19:18
dalek	nqp: 1792c64 \| sorear++ \| src/vm/parrot/QAST/Operations.nqp:	19:21
	nqp: tweak error message in nqp::getpid	19:21
	nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/1792c6493d	19:21
jnthn	sorear++ # good catch	19:22
dalek	perl6-roast-data: 6755e3d \| (Will "Coke" Coleda)++ \| / (4 files):	19:31
	perl6-roast-data: today (automated commit)	19:31
	perl6-roast-data: review: https://github.com/coke/perl6-roast-data/commit/6755e3deca	19:31
[Coke]	that brings us up over 70% !	19:31
sorear	!	19:32
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masak	FROGGS_: <?{ $*PADDING := ~$<padding> if nqp::chars($<padding>); 1 }>	19:33
	better written as { $*PADDING := ~$<padding> if nqp::chars($<padding>) }	19:34
	(and I still suspect $*PADDING could be replaced by some simpler mechanism)	19:34
FROGGS_	masak: that stops LTM	19:34
masak	<?{}> doesn't stop LTM!?	19:35
sorear	<?{}> does stop LTM	19:35
FROGGS_	no, the block form	19:35
sorear	if you don't want to stop LTM, you need to use <!!{}>	19:35
masak	sorear: oh phew	19:35
FROGGS_	hmmm	19:35
masak	wait what	19:35
	where's the logic in all of that?	19:36
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[Coke]	sorear++ jnthn++	19:36
masak	FROGGS_: also, I now see we really need to abstract out infix_x($padding, $size - $length) anyway.	19:37
FROGGS_	about the padding, we could make a sub like sub padding { $<size><padding> \|\| ' ' }...	19:37
masak	FROGGS_: it keeps cropping up everywhere with insignificant variations.	19:37
	FROGGS_: yes. FROGGS_++	19:37
	that's much better than a dynamical.	19:37
sorear	the contents of a <!before > are invisible to LTM	19:37
	<?before > is special to LTM: the contents of the <?before > replaces the continuation, essentially, since we assume it's more specific than what follows	19:38
	foo <?before bar> \w+ is LTMed like 'foobar {}'	19:38
	foo <!!before bar> \w+ is LTMed like 'foo \w+'	19:39
jnthn	Wow, 70%!	19:40
woolfy	70%++	19:40
sorear	jnthn++	19:41
	jnthn: now beat niecza, I know you can do it	19:41
jnthn	sorear: Feel free to chip it a few commits towards it, if you fancy a little bug-hunting ;)	19:41
	sorear: Are you working on the interop stuff?	19:42
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lizmat	the 2 failing rakudo tests are in t/spec/S12-attributes/clone.t	19:42
	lizmat is checking	19:42
sorear	jnthn: yes, interop mostly atm	19:42
jnthn	sorear++	19:43
sorear	lizmat: yes, ssutch deliberately committed TODO tests to that file	19:43
	lizmat: probably should have been #?rakudo todo'd or so	19:43
timotimo	yeah, think so, oo	19:43
lizmat	Ah, but they aren't marked as todo	19:43
	will mark them as todo	19:43
timotimo	where do i find File::Spec.updir? is File::Spec a module? and if so, should it become a dependency of ufo? i thought ufo was meant to be dependencyless so that you can install things with it without installing anything before	19:44
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dalek	roast: 894a692 \| (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ \| S12-attributes/clone.t:	19:45
	roast: Clone tests should be marked as todo for the time being	19:45
	roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/894a692191	19:45
jnthn	Hm, seems like fixing throws_like would be another big win.	19:46
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dalek	roast: 0bdad76 \| (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ \| .gitignore:	19:47
	roast: Make sure we ignore any generated rakudo.parrot files	19:47
	roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/0bdad76f3c	19:47
lizmat	seems one can now rm t/spec//.rakudo	19:48
timotimo	indeed, rakudo.parrot and rakudo.jvm are the new files	19:50
[Coke]	colomon++ noticed that was borked earlier.	19:51
	(throws_like)	19:51
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jnthn	Of course, the interesting question is, "why"...	19:52
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sorear	I might also do applet stuff later.	19:53
	colomon just blew up his IRC program trying to figure out who else is talking about throws_like	19:53
sorear	and dukeleto wants me to do a real-time GC (for Parrot), which sounds fun	19:53
jnthn	aha, S04-exception-handlers/catch.t fails with the same error. It's probably easier to track it down from there...	19:54
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diakopter	sorear: do you mean precisely real-time, or actually wait-free	19:55
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sorear	diakopter: hard real time. there is a fixed bound on the number of cycles allocate is allowed to spend before returning, and a guarantee that allocate will never fail as long as total retained objects remains below a prespecified fraction of the heap size	19:57
colomon	jnthn: if you're talking about the "Wrong number of arguments passed; expected 1..1, but got 0", loads of files are doing that -- I suspect every one that calls throws_like. Possibly every one with exception handling at all?	19:58
sorear	I don't care whether locks are used, as long as we can prove that the waits are limited	19:58
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jnthn	colomon: well, turns out CATCH itself is busted!	19:59
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jnthn	How the heck do we pass 70% of the tests with a busted CATCH... :)	20:00
colomon	jnthn: I'm thinking if you fix it, the results are going to be stupendous. ;)	20:00
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jnthn	Plenty else is busted :P	20:00
sorear	jnthn: rakudo catch, nqp catch, or both?	20:01
jnthn	sorear: Rakudo only	20:01
colomon	jnthn: I'm not surprised by CATCH being broken; as nearly as I could tell by adding say statements, the problem had to be happening somewhere between try and CATCH, inclusive.	20:01
sorear	jnthn: note that there's a bit of a semantic change(?) with nqp catch	20:01
	jnthn: you may have noticed that in the REPL all exceptions resume	20:02
jnthn	sorear: Oh, I was wondering when that got regressed...	20:03
sorear	hmm, I can't reproduce the REPL exceptions bug right now. maybe jnthn++ fixed that?	20:04
	> say 1; nqp::null().gist; say 3	20:04
	1	20:04
	Can not call method 'gist' on a null object	20:04
	>	20:04
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jnthn	sorear: I saw it in Rakudo's REPL today	20:05
	heh...anybody want to fix a typo in roast? :)	20:06
	S04-phasers/begin.rakudo.jvm....................... 8 0 0 1 9	20:06
	1 skipped: cannot assing to non-container	20:06
	...well, that's a pain in the butt :P	20:07
lizmat	jnthn: will fix	20:07
sorear	jnthn: another thing you may be aware of	20:07
	Stefans-MacBook-Air:nqp-jvm sorear$ ./nqp -e 'sub bob() { nqp::null().foo }; { bob(); say("hi"); CATCH { nqp::resume($!) } }'	20:07
	hi	20:07
	the doc comment for ExceptionHandling.throwInternal says it's not resumable, but this is manifestly wrong.	20:07
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jnthn	sorear: um, interesting :)	20:08
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dalek	roast: 056fe4e \| (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ \| S04-phasers/begin.t:	20:10
	roast: Only the rakudo on the JVM can't do these tests	20:10
	roast:	20:10
	roast: spotted by jnthn++	20:10
	roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/056fe4ed71	20:10
	timotimo is measuring the time between jnthn complaining about a busted CATCH and jnthn pushing the commit to fix it	20:10
dalek	rakudo/nom: 38173e7 \| jnthn++ \| src/Perl6/Actions.nqp:	20:11
	rakudo/nom: Initial fix to CATCH.	20:11
	rakudo/nom:	20:11
	rakudo/nom: Now it at least sometimes works.	20:11
	rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/38173e77a9	20:11
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jnthn	lizmat: uh, no, that needs to be fudged for Rakudo in general	20:11
	lizmat: I just meant the typo in the word assign :P	20:11
sorear	Stefans-MacBook-Air:nqp-jvm sorear$ ./nqp -e 'sub bob() { nqp::null().foo }; { bob(); CATCH { say("Ex: "~$!); nqp::resume($!) } }'	20:11
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sorear	Ex: Can not call method 'foo' on a null object	20:11
	more fun ^	20:11
	Ex: java.lang.RuntimeException: Stooge exception leaked	20:11
	Ex: java.lang.RuntimeException: Stooge exception leaked	20:11
	Stefans-MacBook-Air:nqp-jvm sorear$	20:11
lue	timotimo: 12m for a partial fix :)	20:12
jnthn	...OK, so the comment is right (they're not resumable if you want anything to end well). :)	20:12
sorear	but why is it called "stooge"?	20:13
dalek	roast: 07b53b5 \| (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ \| S04-phasers/begin.t:	20:13
	roast: Per request of jnthn	20:13
	roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/07b53b58eb	20:13
sorear	and why is there only one of them? :)	20:13
cognominal	I have tried to explain our problem in this gist. And it made me run into another problem. https://gist.github.com/cognominal/5846277	20:13
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jnthn	sorear: dieInternal returns an exception so we can write "throw ExceptionHandling.dieInternal(...)" and Java compiler is happily convinced we're not coming back.	20:14
lizmat	jnthn: hmmm…. seems I got it wrong again :-) should learn to read	20:14
	anyway, I got the impression the test passes	20:14
	lizmat is doublechecking	20:14
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sorear	jnthn: note that, afaict, perl6_skip_handlers_in_rethrow is unneeded on jvm because ExceptioonHandling.java already contains logic to never reenter a handler	20:17
jnthn	sorear: Correct.	20:17
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jnthn	sorear: That's why we just do nothing on the JVM :)	20:17
	Somehow, at the moment, it ends up doing everything fine inside the CATCH...then the exception gets re-thrown again.	20:18
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lizmat	jnthn: S04-phasers teet for our that test runs fine in rakudo, the todo/skip was unneccesary	20:23
	*tst	20:24
	*test	20:24
	grrrrr	20:24
	jnthn: so should I fudge rakudo.jvm? or add it to the ~30% remaining :-)	20:25
jnthn	lizmat: I'd rather not fudge stuff JVM-specific yet	20:25
lizmat	then all is fine	20:25
jnthn	lizmat: for now it's more helpful they fail outright so we can see what's left to do	20:25
lizmat	agree	20:26
	coming back to the keeping the capture trick with \|c, I guess you cannot use that on multimethods, as it will change the signature, right?	20:27
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ssutch	hello perl6!	20:28
lizmat	ssutch!	20:28
moritz	Files=713, Tests=19787, 2919 wallclock secs (12.13 usr 2.76 sys + 44.96 cusr 11.68 csys = 71.53 CPU)	20:28
sorear	ssutch!	20:29
	moritz!!	20:29
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ssutch	peeps!	20:29
sorear	I like how I can tell that it's a jvm test just by looking at the times	20:29
dalek	rakudo/nom: 39d29d8 \| (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ \| src/core/Any.pm:	20:30
	rakudo/nom: Remove superfluous named parameter	20:30
	rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/39d29d8d27	20:30
moritz	https://gist.github.com/moritz/5846436 # complete summary	20:31
	sorear: aborting many tests makes for a fast run, yes :-)	20:31
	SCNR	20:32
labster	r: say IO::Spec.updir() # use this timotimo	20:32
camelia	rakudo 7f0af9: OUTPUT«..␤»	20:32
	moritz -> sleep	20:33
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sorear	moritz: more looking at the difference between wall and usr	20:33
lizmat	fwiw, the 19787 puts it at 75%+ in my book	20:33
jnthn	lizmat: That's attepted, not passed	20:33
lizmat	ah, ok :-(	20:34
colomon	lizmat: no frowns, the rate of progress here is phenomenal. Just not quite that fast. ;)	20:37
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cognominal	I added a comment in my gist. As said by xlat-home the result of the first iteration does not match the behavior explained by pmichaud	20:40
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dalek	specs: 9b6b82a \| (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ \| S32-setting-library/Containers.pod:	20:46
	specs: Spec Hash.exists and Hash.delete as internal methods	20:46
	specs: review: https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/9b6b82a469	20:46
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raiph	moritz	20:48
masak	raiph	20:48
sorear	raiph: ENOMORITZ	20:48
raiph	hi sorear: moritz's irclogs are down; anyone know an alternate irclog url?	20:49
lizmat	sleep&	20:49
sorear	.oO( file:///Users/sorear/irclogs/freenode/#perl6.log )	20:50
raiph	:)	20:50
	masak .oO( we know the logs are down, see the backl... oh wait )	20:50
sorear	http://colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_log/perl6?date=2013-06-23	20:50
raiph	i recall there being another one. it was mentioned on channel. so i could just sear .. oh wait	20:51
	thx	20:51
	ChanServ set mode: +o	20:51
masak	losing one's logs is like losing one's glasses.	20:51
	sorear changed the topic to: »ö« Welcome to Perl 6! \| http://perl6.org/ \| evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo:, niecza:, std:, or /msg camelia perl6: ... \| irclog: http://colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_log/perl6 \| UTF-8 is our friend!	20:52
	sorear set mode: -o	20:52
sorear	will change it back once deutsche telekom gets their act together	20:52
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jnthn	yays, jsut got S04-exception-handlers/catch.t to pass in full	20:59
labster	jnthn++	21:00
sorear	jnthn: \o/	21:02
jnthn	And seems throws_lajk now works too :)	21:02
	er, like :)	21:03
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timotimo	i re-made most of the camelia logo	21:04
	there was some weird stuff in the svg	21:04
	masak .oO( like a big happy butterfly )	21:04
sorear	.oO( jimmy hoffa's body? )	21:04
FROGGS_	cough http://usev5.wordpress.com/	21:07
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sorear	FROGGS_: is that an actual book?	21:08
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lue	.oO( Hand-crafted lines you've now mercilessly tossed aside in favor of more precise ones? )	21:08
FROGGS_	sorear: no	21:08
jnthn	meh, I busted something else while fixing the exception stuff...	21:09
	Take 2.	21:09
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sorear	"You know the Inline modules? Well, it is not quiet like that"	21:10
	.oO( I can has commitbit? )	21:10
TimToady	FROGGS_: ss/test suite if from/test suite is from/	21:10
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FROGGS_	jnthn: btw, my test_summary script generates a REGRESSION file, in case a test file looses passes or the plan, might be handy for you too	21:11
	TimToady: thanks, will fix	21:11
masak	FROGGS_: s/quiet nice/quite nice/	21:11
FROGGS_	sorear: to the repo? sure	21:11
	damn it g	21:11
sorear	FROGGS_: to the blog :p	21:11
	s/quiet/quite/	21:11
FROGGS_	sorear: does that work?	21:12
masak	s/Quiet Awesome/Quite Awesome/	21:12
FROGGS_	meh	21:12
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sorear	quiet is the opposite of noisy.	21:12
	you want quite.	21:12
masak	FROGGS_++ # quiet a nice post :)	21:12
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FROGGS_	hehe	21:13
masak	happy to report I correctly guessed which were the 2.5 languages before seeing it at the bottom :P	21:13
FROGGS_	masak++ # yepp, :o)	21:14
masak	FROGGS_++ # v5	21:15
jnthn	"Not Quiet Perl" - is that a comment on its stack traces? :D	21:16
	FROGGS_++	21:16
FROGGS_	hehe	21:16
	no, fixed that too	21:16
	looks like a problem with quiet/quite	21:16
timotimo	my painstakingly fixed version of camelia.svg is 23kb big instead of the previous 160kb	21:17
	KB actually	21:17
	but i don't know if i can create a .odg file from it properly	21:17
flussence	you can only find out if you try	21:18
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colomon	FROGGS_ blog?	21:19
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FROGGS_	colomon: yesh	21:20
colomon	link?	21:20
	pretty please?	21:20
FROGGS_	http://usev5.wordpress.com/	21:20
colomon	I like the name. ;)	21:20
	FROGGS_++	21:20
FROGGS_	well, froggs.* and allthewaydown.* were already taken :/	21:21
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timotimo	i made an odg version and will now try to make a .jpg and .ico files for 32x32 and 16x16	21:27
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dalek	specs: 0cca600 \| (Brent Laabs)++ \| S32-setting-library/Numeric.pod:	21:30
	specs: round method produces a Real, not always Int	21:30
	specs: provided a better description of what the specced algorithm actually does	21:30
	specs: review: https://github.com/perl6/specs/commit/0cca600925	21:30
timotimo	h, those ico files were hand-crafted. very good.	21:31
	holy hell, that .jpg file deserves to get nuked	21:31
	(no offense, larry)	21:31
sorear	um	21:32
	that's line art	21:32
	this is 2013	21:32
	isn't png supported yet?	21:32
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jnthn	sorear: I don't suppose you have any Awesome Ideas what we might be able to do on the whole "method code too large" thing that some spectests are hitting?	21:34
	(Aside from "generate better code"...)	21:35
timotimo	sorear: i am replacing the .jpg and .pdf versions with .odf and .svg and .png	21:35
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labster	timotimo++: camelia is no longer a decade behind	21:38
dalek	mu: 5af0e6c \| (Timo Paulssen)++ \| misc/camelia. (5 files):	21:38
	mu: rework camelia.svg, create .png, .odg and delete .jpg, .pdf	21:38
	mu: review: https://github.com/perl6/mu/commit/5af0e6ce44	21:38
timotimo	:)	21:39
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labster	the new camelia is so clean, she shows off the dead pixels in my monitor beautifully	21:42
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labster	chromatic-- for trolling	21:44
sorear	jnthn: I'm actually working on "generate better code"	21:44
jnthn	sorear: yay :)	21:45
sorear	jnthn: I'm not sure how much better I can make it, though, and so eventually we'll need to think about method splitting	21:45
	I noticed you have a little hack in the post-derialization codegen :)	21:45
jnthn	sorear: Yeah... But we know a lot about the structure of that :)	21:45
	sorear: It's costing us test files like rx.t	21:46
sorear	How many spectests are hitting code too large?	21:46
	I mean we compile the setting fine, how many spectests are larger than the setting?	21:46
jnthn	8ish	21:46
sorear	the setting takes three minutes to compile on parrot, how long does rx.t take to compile on parrot?	21:46
jnthn	The problem is amount of code in a particular QAST::Block	21:46
	The setting doesn't have any crazily long methods	21:46
	Test files, however, may just be one HUGE swathe of calls, all in a block.	21:47
sorear	yeah, the codegen changes I'm working on are directed closely at calls	21:47
jnthn	Case in point: https://github.com/perl6/roast/blob/master/S05-mass/rx.t	21:48
sorear	and the "dump everything on the stack, then immediately reload" behavior	21:48
jnthn	A 3000 line single block	21:48
	Yes, at the moment it's doing the "correct, but suboptimal" thing there.	21:48
TimToady	why is camelia wearing black lipstick now?	21:48
sorear	I think we can eliminate that in most cases by making StackState cleverer, but I haven't worked out all the details yet	21:48
jnthn	Yeah, when I was doing it I pondered it and the details felt...hairy... :)	21:49
	So I did the simple thing so I could move on.	21:49
labster	TimToady: she's 13, it must be a Goth phase	21:49
sorear	the png looks OWWW	21:50
	https://raw.github.com/perl6/mu/5af0e6ce44e09d4df7680bfa8d7da27cac2c3b21/misc/camelia.png # look at those cracked lips	21:50
FROGGS_	I believe this is a bit out of date: http://www.perl6.org/archive/people.html	21:50
sorear	and I think the screen printing on her wings is getting ready to peel off	21:50
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TimToady	also, the .pdf is the original, so not sure you should lose it	21:52
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dalek	nqp: 49eb104 \| jnthn++ \| src/vm/jvm/ (2 files):	21:53
	nqp: Provide a way to force exit after unwind.	21:53
	nqp:	21:53
	nqp: This is needed to support the nqp::p6return op. On the JVM, we always	21:53
	nqp: promote exception handlers into their own blocks, unlike on Parrot.	21:53
	nqp: While this rarely leaks out, it did in this case; this is used to	21:53
	nqp: contain the leak.	21:53
	nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/49eb1044ea	21:53
colomon	FROGGS_++	21:53
dalek	rakudo/nom: b9869c2 \| jnthn++ \| src/vm/jvm/Perl6/Ops.nqp:	21:54
	rakudo/nom: Make p6return force exit of outer handler block.	21:54
	rakudo/nom:	21:54
	rakudo/nom: This means a CATCH with a matching when or a default will now actually	21:54
	rakudo/nom: act handled rather than always rethrowing.	21:54
	rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/b9869c2b3f	21:54
jnthn	Between those two we attempt (no idea about pass) ~ 600 more tests, or thereabouts...	21:54
	oh, some of them may be other things I did earlier...	21:55
	Anyway, improvement.	21:55
sorear	jnthn: can you explain what's going on in that nqp commit to me?	21:55
jnthn	sorear: Exception handlers on Parrot are generated "in line", in a single .sub	21:55
	sorear: That means being able to jump into a sub some way down the stack, which isn't really achievalbe on the JVM	21:55
	sorear: So the handler logic gets promoted to a block of its own. That's fine, but there's a place that relied on leaving from the handler meant leaving the block the handler was in. So it was "off by one" on the JVM.	21:56
	sorear: That plus the Rakudo commit I just pushed work around it.	21:56
sorear	why can't you just use UnwindException to leave the handler?	21:57
colomon	"a bit out of date" is a bit of an understatement -- that list predates my 2009 exposure to the project	21:58
sorear	niecza gets along fine without an extra bit in the callframe	21:58
jnthn	sorear: Probably could, I was going for the least disruptive change for now.	22:01
	Hm, it's not immediately clear to me how to...	22:01
	Can be revisited at some point, if it works out neater/cheaper another way. Which will almost certainly be the case for the exception stuff.	22:02
sorear	extra code in every block just makes me a little sad :)	22:03
jnthn	nod	22:03
	I suspect the whole exception stuff can be cleaned up somewhat.	22:04
	There's probably more Parrotisms in there that could go, like the "skip in rethrow" that was already done away with on JVM.	22:04
sorear	(finding parrotisms)++	22:05
jnthn	Moar's handlers are vaguely cute in so far as you can just point the handler of a next/last/redo at the right place in the loop and there's no actual handler, it just unwinds and sets teh PC and done. :)	22:07
sorear	niecza is the same way.	22:08
	also, the code generator is smart and optimizes a throw in the same block as a handler into a goto	22:08
	which combines really nicely with block inling	22:09
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sorear	jnthn: I think block splitting is not impossible, but it probably has to be done at the jast2bc level, and it will have a substantial run-time perfomance penalty...	22:15
jnthn	sorear: I don't think any code where performance matters is likely to hit this, though. :)	22:16
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masak	'night, #perl6	22:41
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FROGGS_	.tell masak good morning! I updated the gist https://gist.github.com/FROGGS/5845176	23:15
yoleaux	FROGGS_: I'll pass your message to masak.	23:15
sorear	good morning FROGGS_	23:16
FROGGS_	morning sorear	23:17
jnthn	wait, morning?	23:18
	:)	23:18
FROGGS_	almost O.o	23:19
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ssutch	is it possible to run methods to a class?	23:24
diakopter	run?	23:24
ssutch	like Message.dostuff = sub ($obj, $stuff) { }	23:24
diakopter	that's the MONKEY_PATCHING thing sorear mentioned to you the other day	23:25
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sorear	(method ($stuff) { ... })($obj, $thing)	23:27
flussence	you can assign anonymous subs to variables, if that's what you mean.	23:27
ssutch	i am trying to generate classes at runtime instead of compile classes	23:28
jnthn	Use the MOP	23:28
flussence	I was going to say that... does it have any decent docs though?	23:29
jnthn	Maybe some in S12	23:29
ssutch	(not afraid to read code)	23:29
jnthn	Also, http://jnthn.net/papers/2012-gpw-meta-programming.pdf has examples of doing exactly that	23:29
ssutch	oh sweet	23:30
flussence	I know the things like ^add_method and ^compose_class or whatchamacallit, but I don't see those in the specs at all...	23:30
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ssutch	jnthn is this talk online?	23:31
jnthn	ssutch: I'm not aware of any videos of it, sadly.	23:31
ssutch	shucks	23:33
	this helps a lot, thanks!	23:33
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FROGGS_	gnight all	23:37
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timotimo	TimToady: i will now restore the lipstick	23:52
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