IRCloggy #perl6 2018-06-21

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	2018-06-21
Zoffix	This is the bench I used that showed normal lookup 5x faster: https://gist.github.com/zoffixznet/c46533e1a54ba6eb242ed9b12c72f713	00:00
	And this is the diff of the changes: https://gist.github.com/zoffixznet/7e45adca9cb04d5aec3b7a711b509abf	00:01
	← MasterDuke left	00:02
timotimo	did you happen to look at how often DYNAMIC gets invoked with and without your change?	00:02
jnthn	nqp::ctx forces the frame to the heap so we can reference it (those these days MoarVM also keeps stats on which frames nearly always end up getting promoted there, and then just allocates them there in the first place to save the copy).	00:03
	nqp::ctx also is not possible to inline	00:03
	(Because there's no frame for it to refer to if the frame is inlined)	00:03
Zoffix	ahh	00:03
timotimo	should we introduce a variant of getlexdyn that starts in the current frame rather than the caller's?	00:04
jnthn	Hm, I'd forgotten that even did start at the caller :)	00:04
	Zoffix tries with nqp::getlexdyn to see if that boosts the `print` stuff	00:04
timotimo	wait, what about getlexreldyn?	00:04
	oh, that's what you had	00:05
jnthn	I figured if you're in the current scope, though, then you can just emit a lexical lookup	00:05
timotimo	is that proper? doesn't that perhaps give outers too high a priority, so to speak?	00:05
jnthn	I meant strictly declared the current scope :)	00:06
	That is, it's in the .symbol hash of $*W.cur_lexpad	00:06
timotimo	ah, that'd be a compile-time decision, even	00:06
jnthn	*decalred in	00:06
	Yes, exactly	00:07
timotimo	which would make dynamic variables inside the scope they're declared in cheaper	00:07
	well, it wouldn't have to look far in the dynamic lookup either, but still	00:07
jnthn	Right, which is useful because one usually touches them at least once there to initialize them.	00:07
timotimo	aye	00:07
jnthn	Sure, but it still has to do that lookup by name	00:07
timotimo	oh, true	00:07
jnthn	Whereas a lexical compiles into an array indexing operation	00:07
	And so can JIT into just an instruction or two	00:08
Zoffix	well, even with getlexdyn it's slower. By less, but slower. 0m3.301s on HEAD vs 0m3.547s with my changes	00:09
	Damn, I made ZofBot get ready the medal for nothing :)	00:09
	At least I learned a bunch of stuff from this.	00:10
timotimo	will you try the lexical lookup thing before you scrap the idea?	00:11
Zoffix	timotimo: what do you mean?	00:11
	what lexical lookup thing?	00:11
timotimo	when compiling the DYNAMIC call, first check if the current $!symbols has the $*FOO as a lexical	00:12
	and if it does, just use QAST::Var.new with '$*FOO'	00:12
	otherwise emit the same code you have now	00:12
	→ lizmat joined	00:12
timotimo	that way you don't need to do the nqp::ctx	00:12
	because now you don't have to do dynamic lookup in the current frame, the caller's is an acceptable starting point	00:12
Kaiepi	m: role Foo { proto method gist(\| --> Str) { "SB {*} SE" }; multi method gist(--> Str) { callwith("NAWS") } }; Foo.new.gist	00:13
camelia	rakudo-moar a167e6cca: ( no output )	00:13
Kaiepi	m: role Foo { proto method gist(\| --> Str) { "SB {*} SE" }; multi method gist(--> Str) { callwith("NAWS") } }; say Foo.new.gist	00:13
camelia	rakudo-moar a167e6cca: OUTPUT: «SB * SE␤»	00:13
Zoffix	timotimo: so the QAST::Var would be just the only thing there for $*OUT?	00:13
Kaiepi	is there a way to get it to output "SB NAWS SE"?	00:13
Zoffix	like when would it be lexical?	00:13
timotimo	that's right	00:13
	Kaiepi: {{*}} probably	00:14
	maybe { {*} }	00:14
Zoffix	m: role Foo { proto method gist(\| --> Str) { "SB { {*} } SE" }; multi method gist(--> Str) { callwith("NAWS") } }; say Foo.new.gist	00:15
camelia	rakudo-moar a167e6cca: OUTPUT: «Use of Nil in string context␤SB SE␤ in method gist at <tmp> line 1␤»	00:15
timotimo	aaw	00:15
Zoffix	m: role Foo { proto method gist(\| --> Str) { "SB $({*}) SE" }; multi method gist(--> Str) { callwith("NAWS") } }; say Foo.new.gist	00:15
camelia	rakudo-moar a167e6cca: OUTPUT: «Use of Nil in string context␤SB SE␤ in method gist at <tmp> line 1␤»	00:15
timotimo	m: role Foo { proto method gist(\| --> Str) { "SB " ~ {*} ~ SE" }; multi method gist(--> Str) { callwith("NAWS") } }; say Foo.new.gist	00:15
camelia	rakudo-moar a167e6cca: OUTPUT: «=== SORRY!=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Two terms in a row␤at <tmp>:1␤------> thod gist(\| --> Str) { "SB " ~ {*} ~ SE ⏏ " }; multi method gist(--> Str) { callwi ␤ expecting any of:␤ infix␤ infix stopper␤ …»	00:15
timotimo	m: role Foo { proto method gist(\| --> Str) { "SB " ~ {*} ~ " SE" }; multi method gist(--> Str) { callwith("NAWS") } }; say Foo.new.gist	00:15
camelia	rakudo-moar a167e6cca: OUTPUT: «Use of Nil in string context␤SB SE␤ in method gist at <tmp> line 1␤»	00:15
timotimo	oh	00:16
	i don't think you can callwith the "original" gist like that, as you've actually overridden the proto	00:16
Kaiepi	m: role Foo { proto method gist(\|$ --> Str) { "SB " ~ {$} ~ " SE" }; multi method gist(--> Str) { callwith("NAWS") } }; say Foo.new.gist	00:16
camelia	rakudo-moar a167e6cca: OUTPUT: «=== SORRY!=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Obsolete use of \| or \ with sigil on param $␤at <tmp>:1␤------> role Foo { proto method gist(\|$ ⏏ --> Str) { "SB " ~ {$} ~ " SE" }; multi ␤ expecting any of:␤ formal parameter…»	00:16
timotimo	the candidate from Any isn't available to that particular dispatcher any more	00:16
	m: role Foo { proto method gist(\| --> Str) { "SB " ~ {*} ~ " SE" }; multi method gist(--> Str) { self::Any.gist("NAWS") } }; say Foo.new.gist	00:16
camelia	rakudo-moar a167e6cca: OUTPUT: «Could not find symbol '&Any'␤ in method gist at <tmp> line 1␤ in method gist at <tmp> line 1␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»	00:16
Kaiepi	m: role Foo { proto method gist(\|$a --> Str) { "SB " ~ {$a} ~ " SE" }; multi method gist(--> Str) { callwith("NAWS") } }; say Foo.new.gist	00:17
camelia	rakudo-moar a167e6cca: OUTPUT: «=== SORRY!=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Obsolete use of \| or \ with sigil on param $a␤at <tmp>:1␤------> role Foo { proto method gist(\|$a ⏏ --> Str) { "SB " ~ {$a} ~ " SE" }; mult ␤ expecting any of:␤ shape declaratio…»	00:17
Zoffix	It's in Mu, but it don't take any args	00:17
timotimo	oh	00:17
jnthn	Zoffix: Dynamic variables are stored in the lexpad of the block that declares them.	00:17
Kaiepi	m: role Foo { proto method gist(\|a --> Str) { "SB " ~ {a} ~ " SE" }; multi method gist(--> Str) { callwith("NAWS") } }; say Foo.new.gist	00:17
camelia	rakudo-moar a167e6cca: OUTPUT: «Block object coerced to string (please use .gist or .perl to do that)␤SB SE␤ in method gist at <tmp> line 1␤»	00:17
Kaiepi	m: role Foo { proto method gist($a --> Str) { "SB " ~ {$a} ~ " SE" }; multi method gist(--> Str) { callwith("NAWS") } }; say Foo.new.gist	00:17
camelia	rakudo-moar a167e6cca: OUTPUT: «Too few positionals passed; expected 2 arguments but got 1␤ in method gist at <tmp> line 1␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»	00:17
Kaiepi	m: role Foo { proto method gist($a --> Str) { "SB " ~ {$a} ~ " SE" }; multi method gist(--> Str) { callwith(self, "NAWS") } }; say Foo.new.gist	00:17
camelia	rakudo-moar a167e6cca: OUTPUT: «Too few positionals passed; expected 2 arguments but got 1␤ in method gist at <tmp> line 1␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»	00:17
jnthn	Zoffix: So if you're in the declaring scope then a lexical lookup and a dynamic lookup are equivalent, since there's no searching to do.	00:17
Zoffix	OK, I'll give that a go. Thanks.	00:18
Kaiepi	m: role Foo { proto method gist(*@a --> Str) { "SB " ~ {@a[1]} ~ " SE" }; multi method gist(--> Str) { callwith(self, "NAWS") } }; say Foo.new.gist	00:18
camelia	rakudo-moar a167e6cca: OUTPUT: «Block object coerced to string (please use .gist or .perl to do that)␤SB SE␤ in method gist at <tmp> line 1␤»	00:18
jnthn	Kaiepi: callwith has no candidates to call, because you only declared one (and the proto hides all inherited ones)	00:18
Kaiepi	oh	00:18
	m: role Foo { proto method gist(--> Str) {*}; multi method gist(--> Str) { "SE {nextsame} SE" }; multi method gist(--> Str) { "NAWS" } }; say Foo.new.gist	00:19
camelia	rakudo-moar a167e6cca: OUTPUT: «Nil␤»	00:19
Kaiepi	m: role Foo { proto method gist(--> Str) {*}; multi method gist(--> Str) { "SE {callsame} SE" }; multi method gist(--> Str) { "NAWS" } }; say Foo.new.gist	00:19
camelia	rakudo-moar a167e6cca: OUTPUT: «Use of Nil in string context␤SE SE␤ in method gist at <tmp> line 1␤»	00:19
jnthn	nextsame is walking the exact same dispatch list	00:19
Zoffix	m: role Foo { proto method gist(\| --> Str) { "SB " ~ {*} ~ " SE" }; multi method gist(\s) { s }; multi method gist(--> Str) { samewith "NAWS" } }; say Foo.new.gist	00:19
camelia	rakudo-moar a167e6cca: OUTPUT: «SB SB NAWS SE SE␤»	00:19
timotimo	why did my self::Any.gist not work?	00:19
	i thought that's how you call a method from a parent class on yourself	00:20
jnthn	timotimo: Because the syntax is self.Any::gist :)	00:20
Zoffix	timotimo: it's in Mu	00:20
	oh	00:20
timotimo	ah!	00:20
Zoffix	m: 42.Any::gist	00:20
camelia	rakudo-moar a167e6cca: ( no output )	00:20
Zoffix	TIL	00:20
timotimo	a haven't had a use for this yet i believe?	00:20
jnthn	And Any is just the starting point of the lookup	00:20
	So it'll find the Mu one also :)	00:20
Zoffix	Cool	00:20
	I thought it had to be exact	00:20
timotimo	no, Any.	00:20
	:P	00:21
Zoffix	m: class Foo {}; class Bar is Foo {}; dd Bar.Foo::gist	00:21
camelia	rakudo-moar a167e6cca: OUTPUT: «"(Bar)"␤»	00:21
Zoffix	awesome	00:21
jnthn	Also, this form of call got about 12x faster recently. :-)	00:21
Zoffix	m: role Foo { proto method gist(\|c --> Str) { c ?? "SB " ~ {} ~ " SE" !! {} }; multi method gist(\s) { s }; multi method gist(--> Str) { samewith "NAWS" } }; say Foo.new.gist	00:21
camelia	rakudo-moar a167e6cca: OUTPUT: «SB NAWS SE␤»	00:21
Zoffix	\o/	00:21
	jnthn++	00:21
	← markoong left	00:22
Zoffix	hm, I think lexical thing for dynvars won't work, would it	00:23
	m: my $FOO = 42; sub bar { say $FOO }; { my $*FOO = 100; bar }	00:23
camelia	rakudo-moar a167e6cca: OUTPUT: «100␤»	00:23
Zoffix	like, wouldn't this start giving 42?	00:23
timotimo	we have to be careful to only look in the exact lexpad of the current sub	00:24
	not in any of the outers	00:24
jnthn	Zoffix: Yes, this only works in the case where the symbol is declared precisely in this scope	00:24
Zoffix	aw :( that would help only a tiny amount of cases then	00:24
jnthn	Zoffix: I think if you can check by something like $W.cur_lexpad.symbol('$FOO') truthy	00:24
	Yes, but every little helps :)	00:25
Zoffix	Yeah, I s'pose	00:25
timotimo	it helps exactly in those cases where getlexdyn would miss it because it starts at the caller rather than the current frame	00:25
jnthn	Right, which I thought was the aim :)	00:25
Zoffix	timotimo: no, but the caller is the caller of &DYNAMIC	00:25
timotimo	that's my idea of it anyway	00:25
Zoffix	which is the current scope of where $*FOO is defined	00:25
timotimo	yeah, but don't you generate the lookup op directly in the caller of DYNAMIC now?	00:26
Zoffix	Right	00:26
japhb	As timotimo says, isn't the point that checking for this one case and separating it out allows you to use a better opt for many other cases?	00:26
Zoffix	But getlexdyn wouldn't miss it	00:26
timotimo	sorry, getdynlex	00:26
	the one that doesn't have nqp::ctx in it	00:26
	because nqp::ctx is the one that kills your performance	00:27
jnthn	m: use nqp; sub foo() { my $foo = 42; say nqp::getdynlex('$foo') }; foo	00:27
camelia	rakudo-moar a167e6cca: OUTPUT: «===SORRY!===␤No registered operation handler for 'getdynlex'␤»	00:27
Zoffix	timotimo: no, but I already tried the one without nqp::ctx in it, it's still slow	00:27
	it's getlexdyn	00:27
jnthn	m: use nqp; sub foo() { my $foo = 42; say nqp::getlexdyn('$foo') }; foo	00:27
camelia	rakudo-moar a167e6cca: OUTPUT: «(Mu)␤»	00:27
jnthn	Notice how it fails to find $*foo due to what timotimo said	00:27
	Hm, I'm surprised it's as slow as taking the nqp::ctx	00:28
	ooc, how were you deciding whether to fall back to calling DYNAMIC?	00:28
timotimo	i expect with ifnull	00:28
jnthn	Yeah, that'd be the best way, I think. Was checking in case it was another way :)	00:28
Zoffix	It's not as slow, the diff with getlexreldyn(ctx) was ~.8s and with getlexreldyn was ~.4s	00:28
	slower	00:28
	← gabiruh left	00:29
jnthn	That surprises me	00:29
Zoffix	jnthn: this is what I'm genning: https://gist.github.com/zoffixznet/7e45adca9cb04d5aec3b7a711b509abf#file-diff-diff-L18-L21 and I tried changing that getlexreldyn(ctx) to just getlexdyn and (it failed to install modules, since it can't find current-scoped vars anymore), that was still slow	00:30
jnthn	Not saying you're measuring wrong, just that it doesn't mesh with what I know about how those two work.	00:30
Zoffix	I hope I'm measuring wrong or doign something wrong :D	00:30
	was measuring with time perl6 -e '(print ".") xx 1_000_000' > /dev/null	00:31
timotimo	hopefully there's some hidden factor we can smoke out	00:31
Zoffix	jnthn: what timotimo proposed is that getting nqp::ifnull(getlexdyn,callstatic &DYNAMIC) instead of just callstatic &DYNAMIC was making something else important to get too large to get inlined	00:32
	s:1st/getting/genning/;	00:32
	← zachk left	00:33
timotimo	jnthn is also about to do another round of tuning for "what should the inline limit be"	00:33
jnthn	One possible hypothesis: we can't JIT one of these ops yet, and so including it prevents us from JITting the enclosing code, which also blocks JIT of anything it's inlined in to	00:35
	Another one: we can't JIT something that's in DYNAMIC, but we brought it below the inlining limit, so now it's inlined and also blocks JIT of whatever it's inlined in to	00:36
	MVM_JIT_LOG=jit_log perl6 -e '...'	00:36
	grep BAIL jit_log	00:36
	Will potentially be informative	00:36
timotimo	my cmdline is usually grep "Constructing\\|BAIL\\|Entering"	00:37
	so you'll see what exact frame is getting the bail	00:37
Zoffix	BAIL: op <atkey_u>	00:37
jnthn	ah, cute :)	00:37
Zoffix	BAIL: op <getlexreldyn>	00:37
jnthn	aha...that second one would be the guilty party :)	00:37
Zoffix	Don't think it's my getlexreldyn, 'cause my code's using getlexdyn	00:38
jnthn	It's used in DYNAMIC though, I think	00:38
	→ MasterDuke joined	00:38
Zoffix	$ ./perl6 -e 'my $x; say $x'	00:38
	← raschipi left	00:38
timotimo	getlexdyn isn't actually an op that exists in moar	00:38
Zoffix	Dynamic variable $*x not found	00:38
timotimo	there's a naming confusion somewhere in there	00:38
	in the mapping between ops and nqp::ops	00:38
Zoffix	but I don't think we're calling &DYNAMIC now, like with my code now	00:38
jnthn	timotimo: Yeah, there is. D'oh	00:39
lookatme	what's the difference between `my $x is dynamic` and twigil `my $*x` ?	00:39
Zoffix	with these changes that don't quite compile right: https://gist.github.com/zoffixznet/725ea622bf0bebfce25c54e0364d5deb	00:39
	(modules fail to install)	00:39
timotimo	getlexdyn in nqp:: is getdynlex in moar	00:39
	or the other way around	00:39
	but getlexreldyn corresponds to the same name	00:39
jnthn	lookatme: You can only access the former via CALLERS::<$x> or similar	00:39
lookatme	oh	00:39
Zoffix	../nqp/gen/moar/stage1/QAST.nqp:4325:QAST::MASTOperations.add_core_moarop_mapping('getlexdyn', 'getdynlex');	00:40
jnthn	.oO( dynlexic )	00:40
timotimo	oh, what does a Var with scope :contextual compile to?	00:40
jnthn	timotimo: Not sure, but perhaps the "is it in this scope" and "if not use getlexdyn"	00:41
	In which case it's perfect :)	00:41
	Though I'd check it doesn't do some odd NQP-ism	00:41
Zoffix	\|45d see if &DYNAMIC stuff can be made better: http://colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_log/perl6?date=2018-06-21#l2	00:42
ZofBot	Zoffix, Will remind you on 2018-08-04T20:42:12.623304-04:00 about see if &DYNAMIC stuff can be made better: http://colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_log/perl6?date=2018-06-21#l2	00:42
	Zoffix calls it a day	00:42
	← Zoffix left	00:42
timotimo	that compiles to getdynlex	00:42
	but yeah, if it's in the same frame already, it does do a regular lexical lookup	00:42
jnthn	Sleep time for me also, I think :)	00:44
	'night o/	00:44
timotimo	i think i'll go to sleep as well	00:45
	← lizmat left	00:45
	→ perlpilot joined	00:46
timotimo	gnite	00:51
ryn1x	.	00:52
	→ sacomo joined	00:56
	← Kaiepi left	01:01
	→ Kaiepi joined	01:01
Kaiepi	m: constant IAC = 0xFF.chr; grammar A { token TOP { <a> <.b {~$<a>}> }; proto token a {*}; token a:sym(IAC) { <sym> }; method b($a) { if $a eq IAC { 0xFB.chr } } }; say A.parse("{IAC}\xFB")	01:04
camelia	rakudo-moar a167e6cca: OUTPUT: «P6opaque: no such attribute '$!pos' on type Match in a Slip when trying to get a value␤ in regex TOP at <tmp> line 1␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»	01:04
Kaiepi	how do i pass the match of a token to another token/method?	01:05
	would i need to use a global variable or something?	01:05
	actually i think i should ask this on stackoverflow	01:12
	i can't be the only one that needs to be able to do this	01:12
	← molaf left	01:20
Kaiepi	never mind, all i needed to do was move a token from one token to another to do what i want	01:21
	→ gabiruh joined	01:29
	→ molaf joined	01:33
	← ChoHag left	01:37
	→ ChoHag joined	01:38
Kaiepi	m: grammar Foo { token TOP { <a> <b <{$<a>}> }; token a { foo }; token b($a) { <{~$a}> } }; say Foo.parse('foofoo')	01:48
camelia	rakudo-moar a167e6cca: OUTPUT: «=== SORRY!=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Unable to parse expression in metachar:sym<assert>; couldn't find final '>' (corresponding starter was at line 1)␤at <tmp>:1␤------> ammar Foo { token TOP { <a> <b <{$<a>}> ⏏ }; token a { foo…»	01:48
Kaiepi	m: grammar Foo { token TOP { <a> <b <{$<a>}>> }; token a { foo }; token b($a) { <{~$a}> } }; say Foo.parse('foofoo')	01:49
camelia	rakudo-moar a167e6cca: OUTPUT: «No such method 'anon' for invocant of type 'Foo'. Did you mean any of these?␤ acos␤ any␤ asin␤ atan␤␤ in regex at EVAL_0 line 1␤ in regex b at <tmp> line 1␤ in regex TOP at <tmp> line 1␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line…»	01:49
Kaiepi	m: grammar Foo { token TOP { <a> <b $<a>> }; token a { foo }; token b($a) { <{~$a}> } }; say Foo.parse('foofoo')	01:49
camelia	rakudo-moar a167e6cca: OUTPUT: «No such method 'anon' for invocant of type 'Foo'. Did you mean any of these?␤ acos␤ any␤ asin␤ atan␤␤ in regex at EVAL_0 line 1␤ in regex b at <tmp> line 1␤ in regex TOP at <tmp> line 1␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line…»	01:49
Kaiepi	m: grammar Foo { token TOP { <a> <b $<a>> }; token a { foo }; token b($a) { {~$a} } }; say Foo.parse('foofoo')	01:49
camelia	rakudo-moar a167e6cca: OUTPUT: «Nil␤»	01:49
Kaiepi	m: grammar Foo { token TOP { <a> <b $<a>> }; token a { foo }; token b($a) { <{{$a}}> } }; say Foo.parse('foofoo')	01:50
camelia	rakudo-moar a167e6cca: OUTPUT: «No such method 'anon' for invocant of type 'Foo'. Did you mean any of these?␤ acos␤ any␤ asin␤ atan␤␤ in regex at EVAL_0 line 1␤ in regex b at <tmp> line 1␤ in regex TOP at <tmp> line 1␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line…»	01:50
	← perlpilot left	01:51
tony-o_	what are you trying to do with the match value Kaiepi ?	01:53
Kaiepi	tony-o_, i'm writing a grammar to parse telnet's protocol	02:02
	for IAC DO/DONT/WILL/WONT <option>, i'm required to keep the state for both sides of the connection for each type of telnet option	02:03
tony-o_	ah	02:03
Kaiepi	the token looks like <{IAC}> <type=sym> <negotiation>, but i need to be able to pass type to negotiation	02:04
	→ kjk joined	02:04
Kaiepi	and set state accordingly depending on the value of <type>	02:04
kjk	p6: for CORE::.kv -> $k, $v { put $k }	02:04
camelia	rakudo-moar a167e6cca: OUTPUT: «&ord␤Too few positionals passed; expected 2 arguments but got 1␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤&infix:<⊈>␤&infix:«(<)»␤&samemark␤&prefix:<?>␤&infix:<%%>␤&sprintf␤SocketType␤&infix:<⊖>␤&METAOP_TEST_ASSIGN:<andthen>␤&…»	02:04
kjk	I wonder why I can't iterate what's in CORE directly like that	02:05
tony-o_	should that not be happening in the actions?	02:05
kjk	p6: for CORE::.keys -> $k { put $k }	02:07
camelia	rakudo-moar a167e6cca: OUTPUT: «e␤&tan␤&infix:<⊃>␤&infix:«+<»␤&infix:<×>␤NQPMatchRole␤StrPosRef␤Range␤Collation␤&substr-rw␤&infix:«=>»␤SIGTERM␤&infix:<before>␤&infix:<∉>␤&duckmap␤&infix:«<=»␤PositionalBindFailover␤ThreadPoolScheduler␤Na…»	02:07
tony-o_	m: my $ACTION; grammar F { token TOP { <a> <b> }; regex a { \w { $ACTION=$/; } }; regex b { { $*ACTION.say; } \w+ }; }; F.parse("helloh");	02:07
camelia	rakudo-moar a167e6cca: OUTPUT: «｢h｣␤»	02:07
kjk	p6: for CORE::.values -> $v { put $v }	02:07
camelia	rakudo-moar a167e6cca: OUTPUT: «Sub object coerced to string (please use .gist or .perl to do that)␤uniprops␤trait_mod:<returns>␤0␤flat␤infix:<…^>␤␤set␤infix:<∌>␤cotan␤␤leave␤prefix:<!>␤prepend␤split␤␤prefix:<^>␤spurt␤ in block at <tmp> line…»	02:07
tony-o_	m: my $ACTION; grammar F { token TOP { <a> <b> }; regex a { \w { $ACTION=$/; } }; regex b { { $*ACTION.say; } \w+ }; }; F.parse("helloh"); # Kaiepi	02:07
camelia	rakudo-moar a167e6cca: OUTPUT: «｢h｣␤»	02:07
kjk	p6: for CORE::.values -> $v { put $v .^name }	02:08
camelia	rakudo-moar a167e6cca: OUTPUT: «=== SORRY!=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Malformed postfix call (only alphabetic methods may be detached)␤at <tmp>:1␤------> for CORE::.values -> $v { put $v . ⏏ ^name } ␤»	02:08
tony-o_	there are other ways to abuse the matching too	02:08
kjk	p6: for CORE::.values -> $v { put $v.^name }	02:08
camelia	rakudo-moar a167e6cca: OUTPUT: «Signal␤Sub+{is-pure}␤Signature␤Sub+{Precedence}␤Sub+{Precedence}␤Sub␤Sub␤Sub␤NFKC␤Sub␤Sub␤Sub␤Sub+{is-pure}␤Sub+{is-pure}+{Precedence}␤Sub␤Sub+{is-nodal}+{Precedence}+{is-nodal}␤Sub␤Systemic␤Sub+{is-pure}␤Sub+{is-…»	02:08
kjk	so iterating through CORE::.keys and CORE::.values work, but not CORE::.kv, something the CORE module is triping up the for loop?	02:09
geekosaur	m: dd CORE::.kv	02:12
camelia	rakudo-moar a167e6cca: OUTPUT: «No such method 'perl' for invocant of type 'NQPMatchRole'␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»	02:12
geekosaur	guess there's your answer: it's not a perl 6 thing, it's more primitive	02:12
	which might be an oversight, and might be worth a rakudobug	02:13
	m: say CORE::.kv.^name	02:13
camelia	rakudo-moar a167e6cca: OUTPUT: «Seq␤»	02:13
geekosaur	huh	02:13
	m: say CORE::.kv[0].^name	02:13
camelia	rakudo-moar a167e6cca: OUTPUT: «Str␤»	02:13
kjk	but I was only printing the key	02:13
geekosaur	m: say CORE::.kv[1].^name	02:13
camelia	rakudo-moar a167e6cca: OUTPUT: «Sub␤»	02:13
geekosaur	ok, think it's handling that. it's .kv itself that may be strange.	02:14
	m: say CORE::.kv.WHAT	02:14
camelia	rakudo-moar a167e6cca: OUTPUT: «(Seq)␤»	02:14
kjk	if you assign the .kv result to an array and then iterate through that, it works	02:14
geekosaur	oh, hm, that earlier error may have been something in it	02:14
	yes, I'm saying it's not quite a perl 6 value, it's somethoing else that only behaves as you expect part of the time	02:15
	underneath perl 6 is nqp, and sometimes nqp values leak through and do unexpected things	02:15
kjk	should I open a bug report?	02:16
geekosaur	I think .kv should work for it like it works for anything else. although CORE:: is a PseudoStash, maybe it's known to do something different	02:16
	iirc	02:16
	m: say CORE::.^name	02:17
camelia	rakudo-moar a167e6cca: OUTPUT: «PseudoStash␤»	02:17
geekosaur	might see if other PseudoStash-es (UNIT::, GLOBAL::, etc.) do the same thing, and include that in bug report	02:18
	it looks like it should work	02:18
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kjk	does'nt seem to be because it's a PseudoStash. I suspect it might be some value in CORE:: that caused the problem.	02:26
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kjk	p6: say PROCESS::.^name; for PROCESS::.kv -> $k, $v { put $k }	02:28
camelia	rakudo-moar a167e6cca: OUTPUT: «Stash␤$AWAITER␤$IN␤$SPEC␤$ERR␤&chdir␤$PID␤$OUT␤$SCHEDULER␤%ENV␤»	02:28
geekosaur	actually, I bet it;s the same thing that tripped my earlier check, then	02:29
	where dd tripped over an NQPMatchRole	02:29
kjk	but isn't that because dd calls .perl on NQPMatchRole? my for loop didn't call .perl on the values at all	02:30
geekosaur	but it's missing more things than just .perl	02:31
	nqp values are missing most things you expect	02:31
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Kaiepi	can i subclass a grammar with a class and use it both to parse data and handle socket connections?	02:37
	there's a lot of state that both the grammar and the client class need to know	02:37
geekosaur	I'm wondering if you should be looking at action classes at this point	02:39
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Kaiepi	i've been trying to avoid action classes because i honestly have no clue how to write them even after looking at the documentation	02:40
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kjk	I wonder if it has something to do with IterationEnd in CORE	02:41
Kaiepi	i'll post the code i have so far in a sec and see if i can figure out how to use action classes for what i'm doing	02:42
kjk	p6: my %h = CORE::.kv	02:42
camelia	rakudo-moar a167e6cca: OUTPUT: «Odd number of elements found where hash initializer expected:␤Found 189 (implicit) elements:␤Last element seen: "IterationEnd"␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»	02:42
MasterDuke	i think Slip might also be causing problems	02:44
kjk	p6: my %h = CORE::.kv	02:44
camelia	rakudo-moar a167e6cca: OUTPUT: «Odd number of elements found where hash initializer expected:␤Found 119 (implicit) elements:␤Last element seen: "IterationEnd"␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»	02:44
kjk	p6: my %h = CORE::.kv	02:44
camelia	rakudo-moar a167e6cca: OUTPUT: «Odd number of elements found where hash initializer expected:␤Found 1339 (implicit) elements:␤Last element seen: "IterationEnd"␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»	02:44
MasterDuke	m: my @a; for CORE::.kv -> $k, $v { @a.push: $v }	02:44
camelia	rakudo-moar a167e6cca: OUTPUT: «Invocant of method 'iterator' must be an object instance of type 'List', not a type object of type 'Slip'. Did you forget a '.new'?␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»	02:44
geekosaur	o.O	02:45
Util	timotimo: timotimo: "The enemy is a Nazi ghost tank?" is one of three "Easter Eggs",	02:48
kjk	p6: my @a = CORE::.kv; for @a -> $k, $v { put $k }	02:48
camelia	rakudo-moar a167e6cca: OUTPUT: «buf32␤num64␤Dateish␤&METAOP_CROSS␤&univals␤MultiDispatcher␤&undefine␤SIGSTKFLT␤NFD␤&log␤&minmax␤uint32␤&combinations␤&infix:<⊍>␤&atomic-assign␤&infix:<×>␤&awaiterator␤SIGUSR1␤SIGINFO␤&infix:<//>␤&item␤&infi…»	02:48
Util	to tempt people into Googling the phrases, which lead to online stories they might enjoy.	02:48
tony-o_	it definitely sounds like you need to be using actions Kaiepi	02:50
	https://docs.perl6.org/language/grammars#Action_Objects	02:50
	are you going to run the grammar against every response from the server?	02:51
Kaiepi	yes	02:56
	the grammar's a bit tricky since there can be multiple actions in one message received from the server, and the actions can be either raw text or commands with subnegotiations that are unique to each command	02:57
	this is the code i have so far https://pastebin.com/9Yc8m1e2	02:58
	i need to move $SUPPRESS-GO-AHEAD and $ACTION to the actions class since rfc1143 forces me to deal with DO/DONT/WILL/WONT in a certain way	03:00
buggable	New CPAN upload: IP-Random-0.0.3.tar.gz by JMASLAK http://modules.perl6.org/dist/IP::Random:cpan:JMASLAK	03:05
Kaiepi	what confuses me about actions is what make/made/ast are doing	03:05
	and when methods are called	03:06
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[Coke]	zoffix++ # mtime docs	03:20
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Geth	¦ doc/pod-cache: e9a057962d \| (Will "Coke" Coleda)++ \| 6 files	04:29
	¦ doc/pod-cache: Add Pod::Cache	04:29
	¦ doc/pod-cache:	04:29
	¦ doc/pod-cache: Instead of generating pod files each time for each test that needs	04:29
	¦ doc/pod-cache: it, generate a cache as we go, that uses the timestamp to insure	04:29
	¦ doc/pod-cache: we don't regen them if not needed.	04:30
	¦ doc/pod-cache:	04:30
	¦ doc/pod-cache: This temporarily removes the concurrency from some files.	04:30
	¦ doc/pod-cache:	04:30
	¦ doc/pod-cache: Related to #1952	04:30
	¦ doc/pod-cache: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/e9a057962d	04:30
lizmat	[Coke]: wouldn't a sha1 be handier ?	04:31
[Coke]	handier in what way?	04:32
	(i'd have to store the sha1 somewhere at that point as well)	04:33
lizmat	sometimes people touch files inadvertently without changes	04:33
[Coke]	but I'm definitely open to a better algorithm.	04:33
lizmat	well, you're storing the mtime somewhere ?	04:33
[Coke]	it's in the cached copy of the pod.	04:33
	if someone touches the file, regen'ing the pod isn't that slow.	04:33
	it's just that we were regening it 5 times.	04:33
	(and tossing it every single time)	04:34
lizmat	oki... I guess I was just thinking about the precomp logic	04:34
[Coke]	so, this is better, but not perfect.	04:34
buggable	New CPAN upload: Acme-Dont-0.0.1.tar.gz by ELIZABETH https://cpan.metacpan.org/authors/id/E/EL/ELIZABETH/Perl6/Acme-Dont-0.0.1.tar.gz	04:45
lizmat	yeah, couldn't resist :-)	04:46
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Kaiepi	i think i'm starting to work out how to use action classees	05:17
	is there a difference between .ast and .made?	05:17
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geekosaur	nope, they're aliases	05:25
	https://docs.perl6.org/routine/ast	05:25
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	masak enjoyed https://arp242.net/weblog/yaml_probably_not_so_great_after_all.html	05:46
masak	I mean, I like YAML. but it _is_ a very complicated format.	05:47
	the article goes into some of the WATs	05:47
	also, TIL about StrictYAML	05:50
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moritz	yaml also has this mis-feature where 15:30 can be parsed either as a string or into the integer 15*60 + 30	05:52
masak	the article points to the practice of explicitly quoting strings everywhere to avoid a lot of unexpected behavior	05:53
	(which throws into stark relief the JSON practice of requiring this for object keys)	05:53
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masak	I find that, in general, people don't appreciate the distinction between "parameters" and "arguments"	06:05
	even accounting for different terms being used in different cultures, it seems to me that most of the time, people just conflate the two	06:05
	unless they're language designers :)	06:06
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tadzik	hm, I'm quite surprise at the first point of that article; is that a python-specific thing though, or does every yaml parser actually do this?	06:20
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geekosaur	didn;t it address that? they pointed to load vs. load_safe. and that you need to change php's ini file to get safe loading	06:21
tadzik	it seems like YAML.pm has this as an opt-in	06:21
	right, but I expected a criticism of YAML, not its stupid default library in that language or the other	06:22
geekosaur	it addressed that one too	06:22
tadzik	"yaml is bad becuase its default python library is awful" is a weak point imho	06:22
geekosaur	yaml is bad because its API encourages that bad defauklt	06:22
	and worse defaults like php's	06:22
Kaiepi	is there a token like <:ascii> that exists for <[ 0x[00] .. 0x[FF] ]>?	06:23
	i tried <:latin> but apparently it's not latin-1	06:23
masak	I think most language have both a load and a loadSafe method -- the load method is probably the first one and the loadSafe method was added after the security implications became clearer	06:23
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masak	Kaiepi: I got a mental image of you trying <:latin> and the error message being "HAEC FORMA NON VALET"	06:24
Kaiepi	lol	06:25
tadzik	I still feel a bit like it's saying "memory is OSes is bad because we have strcpy() and not everyone uses strncpy()" :) But eh	06:26
geekosaur	API design's a valid complaint. and I would --- and many security types have --- made exactly that argument re libc	06:27
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masak	tadzik: I disagree. I think if you have a library that loads a data file, and that library has a default Load method which can have arbitrary side effects decided by the one who authored the data file, then that's a problem and a security risk and bad design.	06:28
tadzik	oh, I fully agree with that! But I think it's a failure of that library, not the data format	06:29
masak	it's something about expectations. loading a data format counts as "pure" in people's minds, so it doesn't register as a security risk.	06:29
geekosaur	YAML is more than just a data format; it is an API for processing that data format	06:29
masak	tadzik: to a large extent it falls on the libraries, yes. but the spec is what suggests having the side effects in the first place.	06:29
tadzik	just like the strcpy argumemt is against libc :)	06:29
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metracom	Slurp mode	06:30
tadzik	right. I guess it could be a failure of the spec that it doesn't make it clear enough that YAML does a lot of things	06:31
	or it failed in its marketing, and we all know how hard it is to fix that :P	06:31
masak	I think the spec is culpable to the extent that things should be secure by default. just having loadSafe on the side doesn't feel like enough -- somewhat backed up by the usage statistics.	06:32
tadzik	. o O ( mysql_real_escape_string )	06:32
masak	I mean, I'd much rather see a safe-by-default load method, along with a side-effecty loadDangerously	06:32
tadzik	absolutely	06:32
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tadzik	or don't call it load, but rather something more obvious: eval? :)	06:33
metracom	loadandpray	06:33
masak	I recall we had similar-ish discussions about Pod back in 2006 or something	06:33
tadzik	you could even make it uppercase EVAL for it to stand out more...	06:33
masak	don't really know how those resolved themselves	06:33
	tadzik: heh	06:34
tadzik	"The reason for this is because you can’t use a list as a dict key in Python" -- ...so use a tuple? %)	06:34
	not sure if you can have such a workaround in ruby or php though	06:35
masak	the point about portability still stands, though	06:35
	the same input data works in some languages but not in others	06:35
tadzik	I guess YAML's strongest point, ultimately, is "it's less PITA to write by hand than other things"	06:35
	yep, agreed	06:35
masak	I think the stated goal of YAML is noble	06:36
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masak	it's also worth remembering (as HN points out) that YAML got started about the same time as JSON	06:36
tadzik	all in all, it's was a good read and a pretty convincing one too :)	06:40
	and TOML certainly looks sensible	06:41
masak	https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17362178 -- this reminded me of Perl 6 on a good day	06:45
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tadzik	indeed :) I did chime in	07:00
masak	tadzik++	07:01
	m: constant foo = [ sub { say "OH HAI" } ]; foo[0]()	07:09
camelia	rakudo-moar a167e6cca: OUTPUT: «OH HAI␤»	07:09
masak	...I'm new here. is there a tool to check how long ago something started working in Rakudo?	07:10
	bisectable6: help	07:10
bisectable6	masak, Like this: bisectable6: old=2015.12 new=HEAD exit 1 if (^∞).grep({ last })[5] // 0 == 4 # See wiki for more examples: https://github.com/perl6/whateverable/wiki/Bisectable	07:10
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masak	bisectable6: old=2017.01 new=HEAD constant foo = [ sub { say "OH HAI" } ]; foo[0]()	07:11
bisectable6	masak, On both starting points (old=2017.01 new=a167e6c) the exit code is 0 and the output is identical as well	07:11
	masak, Output on both points: «OH HAI␤»	07:11
masak	hm.	07:11
	there was something with bounded serialization and subs in constants that didn't work a while ago	07:11
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moritz	try going back further?	07:13
	or maybe the problem is only in precompiled code?	07:13
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masak	yes, I suspect so.	07:15
	https://rt.perl.org/Public/Bug/Display.html?id=131840 seems related	07:16
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masak	m: my %h1; %h1<foo> = 1; my %h2 := %h1.clone; %h2<bar> = 2; say %h1	07:24
camelia	rakudo-moar a167e6cca: OUTPUT: «{foo => 1}␤»	07:24
masak	I see RT #127704 has been resolved too long ago. nice.	07:24
synopsebot_	RT#127704 [resolved] : https://rt.perl.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=127704 [BUG] Hash.clone differs from hash assignment; the hash and its clone are spookily entangled	07:24
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jmerelo	Hi	08:11
masak	aloha, jmerelo	08:12
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jmerelo	masak: :-) So everyone is sleeping and getting ready for the next TPC session in SLC, I guess...	08:16
	Somehow, I expected to see, if not a wave, at least a trickle of new Perl6 users. Maybe it's not so immediate...	08:17
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Kaiepi	why do the actions for <action> return Nil, while the ones for <data> work fine? https://hastebin.com/razayevezu.xml	08:38
Geth	¦ doc/pod-cache: 56086e010a \| (JJ Merelo)++ \| 2 files	08:44
	¦ doc/pod-cache: Expands filehandle explanation closes #2111	08:44
	¦ doc/pod-cache: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/56086e010a	08:44
jmerelo	Hum, wrong branch...	08:47
Geth	¦ doc: 5db6e0e006 \| (JJ Merelo)++ \| doc/Type/IO.pod6	08:49
	¦ doc: Improves run docs by adding filehandle argument, closes #2111	08:49
	¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/5db6e0e006	08:49
synopsebot_	Link: https://doc.perl6.org/type/IO	08:49
masak	Kaiepi: because the methods in the action class need to be named action:sym etc, not action	08:49
	masak finds that one of the big problems with the grammar/actions boundary is that it's far too loosely typed	08:50
masak	the other day I got an error message to the effect of "Got 2 arguments but expected 1", but the underlying problem was "You forgot to give your action method a $/ parameter!"	08:51
Kaiepi	ohhh	08:52
masak	if you want a single method in the actions class, then consider not using a proto token in the first place :)	08:54
	protoregexes in the end are a convenient form of "implicit alternatives", with the dispatch happening somewhere inside the regex engine	08:55
moritz	you can always have a single action method upstream	08:56
	though the separate action methods are what makes proto regexes so composable	08:57
masak	I had a situation yesterday where I was doing `[<foo> \| <bar> \| <baz>]` in the token, and then `$<foo>.ast \|\| $<bar>.ast \|\| $<baz>.ast` in the action method (except I forgot the final $<baz>.ast in the heat of battle). and I was thinking "there's gotta be a better way"	08:59
	and that better way was protoregexes :)	08:59
moritz	you can also do $/.hash.values[0].ast	09:00
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masak	I'm simultaneously informed by this, and disgusted :)	09:12
	hm, there's a place in 007 where I might have use of this trick	09:12
	moritz++	09:13
moritz	you can reduce the scope of this madness by putting the alternative into a capture	09:16
	so if you have token flurb { <foo> (<bar>\|<baz>\|<quox>) }	09:17
	you can say $0.hash.values[0].ast	09:17
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masak	ooh	09:22
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masak	sir, I will credit you in the commit message	09:22
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pmurias	tadzik: YAML being vastly more complex then people using it casually expect is something you could consider a failure of the design	09:58
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masak	interestingly, that complexity seems to stem from (a) wanting to be a readable format, and (b) targeting many dynamic languages	10:11
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moritz	and (c) too much creativity :)	10:46
masak	at first I thought you were doing an ASCII copyright symbol ;)	10:48
jnthn	"too much creativity" would be a cute company name :)	10:53
	Though I'm not sure what for :P	10:54
jmerelo	jnthn: A cupcake company	10:54
jnthn	ooh, yes, that'd work :)	10:54
	Until you end up eating the brussel sprout puree with shrimp paste cupcake, anyway...	10:55
masak	Cannot invoke this object (REPR: Null; VMNull)	10:57
	awwww	10:57
	seems I can't stick the 007 builtins in a BEGIN block just yet	10:57
	I looked around in RT for this ticket, but didn't find it on a first attempt	10:58
	I might have to log in so I can do an Advanced Search	10:58
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masak	ah! found the ticket about anonymous subs being broken across module/precomp lines: https://rt.perl.org/Public/Bug/Display.html?id=127089	11:09
	(maybe there are more tickets in RT about it, though)	11:10
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tinita	tadzik: the "YAML is insecure by default" is nonsense	11:13
	YAML does not do anything, it's just a serialization language	11:14
	there's just the fact that some of the processors load generic objects by default	11:14
	this will be fixed in the next version of PyYAML	11:14
	and now that YAML::{Syck,XS,.pm} all have $LoadBlessed, I would like to change the default to 0 at some point	11:15
	there's a pyyaml release planned	11:15
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tinita	YAML::PP is safe by default anyway	11:16
	(if you don't count cyclic references as unsafe, they can be turned off optionally)	11:17
masak	tinita: I take your meaning, but somewhere (I think you'll admit) a lot of implementations ended up implementing the spec in such a way that (by default) generic objects could be loaded. the fact that they're correcting this now is... good, but detracting from the main point that the insecure way was put in there in the first place.	11:18
tinita	about the "The reason for this is because you can’t use a list as a dict key in Python:" I made a pull request to fix that actally	11:19
masak	\o/	11:19
tinita	masak: yeah, agreed that the current state is bad	11:19
masak	I think "YAML does not do anything, it's just a serialization language" loses sight of the fact that several implementations ended up doing the insecure thing by default	11:20
	it's kind of like saying "the law does not do anything, it's just a book"	11:20
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tinita	still, I think writing that in an article is misleading	11:21
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tinita	moritz: the 15:30 thing is not read as a number in YAML 1.2 anymore	11:21
masak	aye, getting the spec/implementation distinction across is hard, as we in the Rakudo Perl 6 world know ;)	11:21
tinita	just that not too many libraries picked up 1.2 :-/	11:21
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tinita	YAML::PP will be able to do both soon	11:22
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tinita	the thing about large YAML files and losing track of indendation: I'm using vim folding if necessary =)	11:25
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timo	"if a yaml structure gets too big, it gets unwieldy. if code gets too big i split it into different functions" - so why not split the yaml structure up with references?	11:27
	timo → timotimo	11:27
timotimo	that should work fine, right?	11:27
yoleaux	02:40Z <MasterDuke> timotimo: can you think of a reason a profile just wouldn't get written? i'm attempting to --profile-compile the rakudo build and it takes a long time (~16m) and finishes without any sort of error, but it never even starts the 'Writing profiler output...' stage	11:27
tinita	timotimo: I'm planning to implement an !include thing, but there's no such thing in the specification	11:28
	so yes, splitting the file up is often better	11:28
timotimo	in the example they give, the "post:" part could have been replaced with a reference and then the post: subtree could have lived at 0 indentation?	11:29
tinita	hm, maybe I read the wrong article	11:30
timotimo	the "Can be hard to edit, especially for large files" section	11:30
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tinita	I see. I think that depends on which framework you use. in openapi you can use something like $ref, and maybe in rails, too, but I don't know it. so that's not a "builtin" YAML thing	11:31
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timotimo	i thought about using & and *	11:32
tinita	I see	11:32
timotimo	but now i realize that would mean the node would also have to show up in some other place; anchors and aliases are probably not able to go between documents in the same file?	11:32
tinita	exactly	11:33
	it would work if your structure allows something like: x-definitions: # define some &anchors here	11:34
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timotimo	also, i just realized that something like json pointers would be difficult in yaml, since json doesn't have to handle complex keys at all	11:38
	so while json pointers can be a simple format of their own, yaml pointers would have to include at least one way of writing yaml objects, most probably the one that doesn't need any newlines	11:39
tinita	with json pointers you mean /foo/bar?	11:41
timotimo	yes	11:41
tinita	I think a couple of people started ypath, but it never was completed :-/	11:41
	https://github.com/peterkmurphy/YPath-Specification	11:42
Kaiepi	why does parsing "{IAC}{SB}{NAWS}0x[00]0x[80]0x[00]0x[80]{IAC}{SE}" work ok with the grammar itself, but parsing it with these actions gives me Nil instead? https://hastebin.com/uyumetilab.sm	11:43
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timotimo	hm, regexes are allowed in ypath? that could allow user-provided ypaths to DOS using catastrophic backtracking, couldn't it?	11:52
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tinita	timotimo: probably, I never looked at ypath closely =)	11:56
timotimo	[Coke]: i think on the Proc::Async slide you're potentially resizing the %output hash when output comes from one of the processes, which can lead to a crash if two processes make their first output sufficiently close together	11:56
	even in a later version of moarvm that can do concurrent hash resizes without crashing, i think that'll still give data loss	11:57
masak	timotimo: is there a pattern for how to handle that?	11:58
timotimo	concurrent resizes you mean?	11:58
masak	I mean, what if a hash is what I actually want here?	11:58
timotimo	have it in a supply or react block, where execution is guaranteed to only be active in one thread at a time	11:58
masak	should I have an array and make a hash later?	11:58
	oh, supply or react. that makes sense.	11:59
timotimo	if you know the keys up front, just initialize all of them up front, that works too	11:59
masak	right	11:59
	right, 'cus it's the resizing that's the problem	11:59
timotimo	yeah	11:59
masak	initializing keys up front sounds like a generally good idea, concurrency or no	11:59
timotimo	assigning to the same scalar from two threads at the same time just races and whoever wins gets to install their value	11:59
	though of course you can use CAS if you want for that purpose	12:00
	y'all remember the "soft" cat? she woke up my computer from suspend last night by putting her foot down somewhere on my keyboard	12:04
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jmerelo	timotimo: she learns pretty fast. You'll have her getting out of vim pretty soon.	12:24
	You probably know, but another batch of TPC talks has been accepted.	12:25
timotimo	i wish this wouldn't lead to all the loose cat hair accumulating all over the keyboard, because that makes it hard to take pretty pictures	12:25
	also, it's a little icky just in general	12:25
jmerelo	timotimo: get an old computer and put some herrings in the screen _and_ over the keyboard. That will keep her busy for a while.	12:26
timotimo	red herrings?	12:26
jmerelo	timotimo: that would be doubly effective. Even more so if she's investigating some crime in the feline world.	12:27
	jmerelo: also, LOL :-)	12:27
pmurias	jmerelo: TPC::EU?	12:36
stmuk_	timotimo: a trained cat on the keyboard is good for crypto entropy	12:37
timotimo	she's far too lazy for that :)	12:37
	masak .oO( lovingly paw-crafted entropy )	12:48
timotimo	well, for now the other cat is relaxing between my keyboard and monitor	12:52
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tbrowder_	jmerelo: not a cat comment, but how are non-breaking spaces working now? any problems noticed?	13:47
ingy	if I enter `sub x {}; x < 1` in the p6 repl and hit enter it goes it a mode I don't understand	13:54
	and can't seem to get out of	13:54
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ingy	can someone explain that?	13:55
	e: sub x {}; x < 1	13:55
evalable6	ingy, rakudo-moar a167e6cca: OUTPUT: «(exit code 1) === SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/YBnZ35wPEx␤Unable …»	13:55
	ingy, Sorry kid, that's not my department.	13:55
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AlexDaniel	e: sub x {}; x < 1	13:55
evalable6	AlexDaniel, rakudo-moar a167e6cca: OUTPUT: «(exit code 1) === SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/k6ZUj7oWwJ␤Unable …»	13:55
	AlexDaniel, Full output: https://gist.github.com/54f38a3a9446b9dec31c8dce91e88a77	13:55
moritz	m: sub x {}; x < 1	13:55
camelia	rakudo-moar a167e6cca: OUTPUT: «=== SORRY!=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Unable to parse expression in quote words; couldn't find final '>' (corresponding starter was at line 1)␤at <tmp>:1␤------> sub x {}; x < 1 ⏏ <EOL> ␤ expecting any of:␤ argument …»	13:55
moritz	ingy: it's a quote-word expression <...>	13:55
	that you didn't finish	13:55
	need x() < 1	13:56
ingy	I was playing with qw vs lt	13:56
	actually	13:56
moritz	the repl somehow recognizes that there's an unfinished quote, and asks you for more input	13:57
ingy	moritz: but how do I tell the repl to give up but not exit?	13:57
	ctl-c kills the repl	13:57
moritz	besides closing the quote? no idea :(	13:57
ingy	as does ctl-d	13:57
	BAD REPL! BAD REPL!	13:58
	:)	13:58
moritz	patches welcome :)	13:58
ingy	ctl-c should probably kill the context, not the repl (unless top context (and only after prompt))	13:59
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ingy	$ coffee	14:00
	coffee>	14:00
	(To exit, press ^C again or type .exit)	14:00
	good example	14:00
moritz	+1	14:00
ingy	e: sub x {}; sub y { x < 0 }	14:05
evalable6	ingy, rakudo-moar cf10780da: OUTPUT: «(exit code 1) === SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/OZEjh76AEZ␤Unable …»	14:05
	ingy, Full output: https://gist.github.com/d1cdd30d2a2a790a865ef7e5b3e37980	14:05
ingy	moritz: doesn't that seem like an ambiguity?	14:06
Kaiepi	i worked out what i was doing wrong with my grammar	14:06
	now i have a basic telnet parser! \o/	14:06
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ingy	Kaiepi++	14:07
robertle	isn't telnet a surprisingly complicated protocol? I remember looking at the spec once and benig shocked by the sheer size of it...	14:07
moritz	ingy: no, the parser always knows whether it expects a term or an operator	14:07
ingy	moritz: in that case y should have returned a Bool	14:08
Kaiepi	it's a simple protocol but really annoying to parse, if it makes sense	14:08
moritz	ingy: x is a listop, so it expects a term after that	14:09
robertle	hmm, i remember the autonegotiation on connection establishment as rather long-winded...	14:09
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moritz	x < 0 is the same as x( < 0 )	14:09
Luneburg	m: False and $number > 0;	14:09
camelia	rakudo-moar a167e6cca: OUTPUT: «=== SORRY!=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Variable '$number' is not declared␤at <tmp>:1␤------> False and ⏏ $number > 0; ␤»	14:09
ingy	e: sub x {}; sub y { x }	14:11
evalable6	ingy, rakudo-moar cf10780da: OUTPUT: «»	14:11
ingy	e: sub x {}; sub y { x() < 0 }	14:11
evalable6	ingy, rakudo-moar cf10780da: OUTPUT: «»	14:11
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Luneburg	Interesting, in the ThinkPerl6 book it says that "False and $number > 0;"expression should short-circuit after the first Boolean is read, and it shouldn't check whether $number has even been declared?	14:11
ingy	just seems a little fragile to me	14:11
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moritz	Luneburg: the declaration check happens at compile time	14:12
	Luneburg: before the short-circuiting at run time	14:12
Luneburg	moritz: Got it, thanks :D	14:12
ingy	bbl	14:12
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Luneburg	I have a value from 0 to 100(decimals included). Every time the value passes a whole integer (1,2,3,4,5), I want to concatenate a dot to an array. How can I do this without using given statements?	14:50
timotimo	an important question is: does the number hit a whole integer exactly? or are you using floating point?	14:51
	or are you just looking for "was the value before a given integer before and is now after that given integer?"	14:52
Luneburg	timotimo: The number will hit all the whole integers	14:52
timotimo	OK	14:52
	m: for 0, 0.1 ... 10 { if $_ %% 1 { print "." } }	14:52
camelia	rakudo-moar cf10780da: OUTPUT: «...........»	14:52
timotimo	m: for 0, 0.1 ... 10 { if $_ %% 1 { print "." } else { print " " } }	14:52
camelia	rakudo-moar cf10780da: OUTPUT: «. . . . . . . . . . .»	14:52
Luneburg	timotimo: Doesn't that just print a "." if the number $_ is divisible by 1?	14:55
timotimo	yes	14:55
	i might be misunderstanding your question	14:55
Luneburg	timotimo: Ah, for one of the project euler problems I decided to make a progress bar thing. Currently, I have it display a percentage towards completion (i.e. "search 0.125% complete)	14:57
	But every time it passes a 1, I want it to add a "." to a progress bar, if that makes sense?	14:57
	And display the progress bar instead	14:57
timotimo	OK, i don't quite understand why just checking for percentages that are divisible by 1 isn't good enough	14:58
ilmari	https://github.com/sergot/Term--ProgressBar?	14:58
AlexDaniel	timotimo: because it can jump over some numbers?	14:58
timotimo	that's why i asked if it hits integers exactly	14:59
	and Luneburg said "will hit all the whole integers"	14:59
Luneburg	timotimo: Yup	14:59
	timotimo: I'm just thinking, aren't all the percentages... divisible by 1 though?	14:59
timotimo	100 of the ones between 0 and 100 are	15:00
Luneburg	facepalm I forgot that "divisible" means without decimal points	15:01
	timotimo: Thanks :D	15:01
timotimo	hah	15:01
	it'd be kind of useless otherwise :D	15:01
AlexDaniel	m: my $progress = 2.3; my $last = 0; sub dots() { put ‘.’ x ($progress.floor - $last.floor); $last = $progress; }; dots; $progress = 5.2; dots	15:01
camelia	rakudo-moar cf10780da: OUTPUT: «..␤...␤»	15:01
AlexDaniel	something like this maybe?	15:01
	I'm not sure if it is correct	15:01
timotimo	AlexDaniel: i'm sure something with a supply could be pretty	15:01
AlexDaniel	m: my $progress = 2.3; my $last = 0; my &dots = { put ‘.’ x ($progress.floor - $last.floor); $last = $progress; }; dots; $progress = 5.2; dots	15:02
camelia	rakudo-moar cf10780da: OUTPUT: «..␤...␤»	15:02
timotimo	m: my $numbers = Supply.from-list(0.1, 1.1 ... 20.1); $numbers.rotor(2 => 1).tap({ .say if .[0].ceil == .[1].floor });	15:03
camelia	rakudo-moar cf10780da: ( no output )	15:03
timotimo	m: my $numbers = Supply.from-list(0.1, 1.1 ... 20.1); $numbers.rotor(2 => 1).tap({ say .[0].ceil, .[1].floor });	15:03
camelia	rakudo-moar cf10780da: ( no output )	15:03
AlexDaniel	maybe https://modules.perl6.org/search/?q=ncurses ?	15:03
timotimo	m: my $numbers = Supplier::Preserving.new; $numbers.rotor(2 => 1).tap({ say .[0].ceil, .[1].floor }); $numbers.emit($_) for 1.1, 2.1 ... 10.1;	15:04
camelia	rakudo-moar cf10780da: OUTPUT: «No such method 'tap' for invocant of type 'Seq'. Did you mean any of these?␤ Map␤ map␤ tan␤␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»	15:04
timotimo	m: my $numbers = Supplier::Preserving.new; $numbers.Supply.rotor(2 => 1).tap({ say .[0].ceil, .[1].floor }); $numbers.emit($_) for 1.1, 2.1 ... 10.1;	15:04
camelia	rakudo-moar cf10780da: OUTPUT: «No such method 'ceil' for invocant of type 'Rat'. Did you mean any of these?␤ Real␤ cis␤ perl␤ tail␤␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»	15:04
timotimo	m: my $numbers = Supplier::Preserving.new; $numbers.Supply.rotor(2 => 1).tap({ say .[0].ceiling, .[1].floor }); $numbers.emit($_) for 1.1, 2.1 ... 10.1;	15:04
camelia	rakudo-moar cf10780da: OUTPUT: «22␤55␤88␤»	15:04
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timotimo	m: my $numbers = Supplier::Preserving.new; $numbers.Supply.rotor(2 => 1).tap({ .say if .[0].ceiling == .[1].floor }); $numbers.emit($_) for 1.1, 2.1 ... 10.1;	15:05
camelia	rakudo-moar cf10780da: OUTPUT: «[1.1 2.1]␤[4.1 5.1]␤[7.1 8.1]␤»	15:05
timotimo	m: my $numbers = Supplier::Preserving.new; $numbers.Supply.rotor(2 => -1).tap({ .say if .[0].ceiling == .[1].floor }); $numbers.emit($_) for 1.1, 2.1 ... 10.1;	15:05
camelia	rakudo-moar cf10780da: OUTPUT: «[1.1 2.1]␤[2.1 3.1]␤[3.1 4.1]␤[4.1 5.1]␤[5.1 6.1]␤[6.1 7.1]␤[7.1 8.1]␤[8.1 9.1]␤[9.1 10.1]␤»	15:05
timotimo	m: my $numbers = Supplier::Preserving.new; $numbers.Supply.rotor(2 => -1).tap({ .say if .[0].ceiling == .[1].floor }); $numbers.emit($_) for 1.1, 1.2 ... 10.1;	15:05
camelia	rakudo-moar cf10780da: OUTPUT: «[1.9 2]␤[2 2.1]␤[2.9 3]␤[3 3.1]␤[3.9 4]␤[4 4.1]␤[4.9 5]␤[5 5.1]␤[5.9 6]␤[6 6.1]␤[6.9 7]␤[7 7.1]␤[7.9 8]␤[8 8.1]␤[8.9 9]␤[9 9.1]␤[9.9 10]␤[10 10.1]␤»	15:05
timotimo	damn, that fires just a bit too often	15:05
	ah	15:05
	m: my $numbers = Supplier::Preserving.new; $numbers.Supply.rotor(2 => -1).tap({ .say if .[0].truncate != .[1].truncate }); $numbers.emit($_) for 1.1, 1.2 ... 10.1;	15:06
camelia	rakudo-moar cf10780da: OUTPUT: «[1.9 2]␤[2.9 3]␤[3.9 4]␤[4.9 5]␤[5.9 6]␤[6.9 7]␤[7.9 8]␤[8.9 9]␤[9.9 10]␤»	15:06
timotimo	perfect	15:06
	this can handle the case when integers aren't hit exactly, too	15:06
	m: my $numbers = Supplier::Preserving.new; $numbers.Supply.rotor(2 => -1).tap({ .say if .[0].truncate != .[1].truncate }); $numbers.emit($_) for 1.1, 1.3 ... 10.1;	15:06
camelia	rakudo-moar cf10780da: OUTPUT: «[1.9 2.1]␤[2.9 3.1]␤[3.9 4.1]␤[4.9 5.1]␤[5.9 6.1]␤[6.9 7.1]␤[7.9 8.1]␤[8.9 9.1]␤[9.9 10.1]␤»	15:06
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buggable	New CPAN upload: Acme-Dont-0.0.2.tar.gz by ELIZABETH https://cpan.metacpan.org/authors/id/E/EL/ELIZABETH/Perl6/Acme-Dont-0.0.2.tar.gz	16:35
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[Coke]	timotimo: (hash resize) oops!	16:40
timotimo	[Coke]: i like your talks, your presentation style is pleasant	16:40
[Coke]	Recipe: Stress out for weeks, do all the work the night before!	16:43
	. o O (Don't actualy do that)	16:43
timotimo	i tend to do it in an even worse way, but then i'm also rather nervous and don't speak very clearly and all that	16:45
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perlpilot	timotimo, there are several people who have pleasant presentation styles. I wish I could relax in front of people like that. (or at least look like it! :-)	16:46
fou	hey, I'm porting Peter Norvig's lis.py tutorial to perl6, but it crashes - could I get some help here? I'm desperated :(	16:46
timotimo	fou: i'd say you've come to the right place	16:47
fou	timotimo: what a relief	16:47
timotimo	what's the nature of the crash? just exceptions, or an actual segfault?	16:48
fou	timotimo: seems like a logic bug. which is weird, because my code is 1:1 translation	16:48
	can I post a gist here?	16:48
timotimo	yes, you can. if you put a m: in front it'll even run the code and put the output on irc, too	16:49
fou	one second	16:49
	timotimo: https://gist.github.com/fou/a70ecd989c47c75dcf421b15d5d5ee0e	16:50
	read-from-tokens always dies with 'unexpected EOF'	16:50
	norvig.com/lispy.html <- python version	16:51
timotimo	do you have example input? does it get deep into recursion at all?	16:51
	oh, heh.	16:51
	you're using ~ in the if/elsif in read-from-tokens	16:51
	you'll want "eq" there instead	16:51
	and i'd probably replace the !~~ with ne as well	16:52
fou	oh ^^ thank you!	16:52
	I have to go now, will join later though. thanks for help :)	16:52
timotimo	you're welcome	16:52
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Geth	¦ doc: e9a057962d \| (Will "Coke" Coleda)++ \| 6 files	17:27
	¦ doc: Add Pod::Cache	17:27
	¦ doc:	17:27
	¦ doc: Instead of generating pod files each time for each test that needs	17:27
	¦ doc: it, generate a cache as we go, that uses the timestamp to insure	17:27
	¦ doc: we don't regen them if not needed.	17:27
	¦ doc:	17:27
	¦ doc: This temporarily removes the concurrency from some files.	17:27
	¦ doc:	17:27
	¦ doc: Related to #1952	17:27
	¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/e9a057962d	17:28
	¦ doc: 56086e010a \| (JJ Merelo)++ \| 2 files	17:28
	¦ doc: Expands filehandle explanation closes #2111	17:28
	¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/56086e010a	17:28
	¦ doc: 6e4c16e3a1 \| (Will "Coke" Coleda)++ \| 8 files	17:28
	¦ doc: Merge branch 'pod-cache'	17:28
	¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/6e4c16e3a1	17:28
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fou	timotimo: it works! but the array is flattened for some reason	18:28
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perlpilot	fou: flattened? you mean @l in your program? If so, perhaps you wanted @l.push instead of @l.append	18:31
fou	perlpilot: ah, right :) I've changed it to .append and wanted to switch back but I forgot	18:31
lembark	Q: If I want to get the same effect as P5's "use lib...", how would I manage $*REPOS in order to add new lib's?	18:31
	Liz doesn't know where this is documented -- her one attempt left her emotionally scarred enought that she has attempted to blot it from her memory :-)	18:32
moritz	lembark: why not just "use lib 'path';"?	18:32
	works in Perl 6, afaict :-)	18:33
lembark	If that works, fine.	18:33
moritz	worked last I tried it :-)	18:33
lembark	i.e., "use lib @prefix_these_libs;" works in Perl6 as it does in Perl5?	18:33
perlpilot	It's that "manage $*REPOS" part you should probably stay away from :)	18:33
lembark	Fine with me.	18:33
	I've got a working version of FindBin (much simpler in P6), wanted to implement FindBin::libs.	18:34
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lembark	Q: Given a list of paths in @pathz what is the correct syntax for calling P6 "lib" at runtime to make use of the values in @pathz?	18:37
	Thanks.	18:37
moritz	m: my $r = CompUnit::RepositoryRegistry; $r.use-repository($r.repository-for-spec("some/path"));	18:46
camelia	rakudo-moar cf10780da: ( no output )	18:46
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moritz	lembark: ^^ should work something like that (which you have to repeate for every element in @pathz	18:47
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tbrowder_	.ask jmerelo how are pod non-breaking spaces working now? any problems noticed?	19:00
yoleaux	tbrowder_: I'll pass your message to jmerelo.	19:00
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jmerelo	So very soon there will be a Perl 6 .gitignore in GitHub https://github.com/github/gitignore/pull/2153#event-1693842140 thanks to bdfoy	19:12
yoleaux	19:00Z <tbrowder_> jmerelo: how are pod non-breaking spaces working now? any problems noticed?	19:12
jmerelo	tbrowder_: Has it been included in the new release? I'll check. Thanks!	19:13
	Is there a new release?	19:13
	releasable6: status	19:13
releasable6	jmerelo, Next release will happen when it's ready. 0 blockers. 88 out of 123 commits logged	19:13
	jmerelo, Details: https://gist.github.com/ec61a4a60c235504fa6ef1d492fd6dcc	19:13
jmerelo	Not yet, I guess...	19:13
tbrowder_	oh, you’re right, i can’t keep up with the release process :(	19:14
	opuaharuk → kurahaupo	19:15
AlexDaniel	release will happen in a few hours	19:16
	nothing is blocking, I just need to get my hands on it	19:16
jmerelo	tbrowder_: thanks for warning, anyway. I'm still travelling but will try to do something as soon as it's availab.e	19:17
	AlexDaniel++	19:17
El_Che	release depends on Argentina playing better	19:17
	:)	19:17
jmerelo	El_Che: Well, that goal was terrible...	19:17
	I mean, really.	19:18
	Kick it into the hands of the Croatian forward.	19:18
El_Che	It's on onto the hand of god, that's sure	19:18
	not	19:18
geekosaur	another team that barely qualified on the way out :p	19:19
jmerelo	Or boots, rather	19:19
	Also, 4 days without Perl6 questions in StackOverflow. We're missing Brian D. Foy there...	19:19
El_Che	jmerelo: it's because your new doc is too clear	19:21
jmerelo	El_Che: :-) 155 issues say otherwise...	19:23
AlexDaniel	o-o-o my PR to FastCGI was merged	19:23
jmerelo	AlexDaniel: congrats!	19:24
El_Che	AlexDaniel: you da man	19:24
lucs	jmerelo: bdf's book is now in t	19:24
	meh	19:24
jmerelo	Beer\|Soft drink\|water for everyone. Next round is on AlexDaniel.	19:24
lucs	jmerelo: bdf's book is now in the hands of his editors, so that probably explains his absence.	19:24
AlexDaniel	.oO(beer water for everyone!)	19:25
jmerelo	lucs: that's probably the case. But there's no one else taking up the slack...	19:25
lucs	jmerelo: Write a book! ;)	19:25
El_Che	is the code on the draft ideomatic?	19:26
	there was some critique on the blog posts	19:26
jmerelo	lucs: Hey, I _did_ write a book! https://amzn.to/2JVX2MF	19:26
lucs	Could be tricky -- one person's idiom is another one's golf example.	19:27
Geth	¦ doc: ronaldxs++ created pull request #2112: Update regexes.pod6 fix reversed suppress capture operators ".&"	19:27
	¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/pull/2112	19:27
lucs	jmerelo: Oh, cool :)	19:27
jmerelo	El_Che: there's no such thing as "idiomatic" perl6	19:27
AlexDaniel	why not	19:28
El_Che	there pis perl6 with a stong perl 5 accent	19:28
jmerelo	We barely have a word for it: p6y...	19:28
	AlexDaniel: Well, there's maybe such a thing "in the abstract". But it's a matter of opinions.	19:28
	Not that, actually. Rather of what you want to optimize. Speed, "functional", thread-safe...	19:29
El_Che	I prefer slow, non-functioning and locking code, myself	19:30
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jmerelo	El_Che: If it non-works optimally, great :-)	19:34
Geth	¦ doc: 33a4b40ddb \| (Jan-Olof Hendig)++ \| xt/examples-compilation.t	19:35
	¦ doc: Added a couple of missing close statements	19:35
	¦ doc:	19:35
	¦ doc: Could cause problems on systems where the number of open fh's per process	19:35
	¦ doc: was set too low, e.g. 1024	19:35
	¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/33a4b40ddb	19:35
El_Che	jmerelo: it looks like the Argentinian selection will have some time soon to ask question on SO	19:39
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jmerelo	El_Che: :-) a lot of time indeed.	19:41
Geth	¦ doc: 81f5da0ccf \| (JJ Merelo)++ \| doc/Type/IO.pod6	19:45
	¦ doc: Minor reflow	19:45
	¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/81f5da0ccf	19:45
	¦ doc: c678f271bd \| (JJ Merelo)++ \| 9 files	19:45
	¦ doc: Fixes conflict	19:45
synopsebot_	Link: https://doc.perl6.org/type/IO	19:45
Geth	¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/c678f271bd	19:45
	¦ doc: 23578bb4e0 \| (Ronald Schmidt)++ \| doc/Language/regexes.pod6	19:46
synopsebot_	Link: https://doc.perl6.org/language/regexes	19:46
Geth	¦ doc: Update regexes.pod6 fix reversed suppress capture operators ".&"	19:46
	¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/23578bb4e0	19:46
	¦ doc: a3753c01a3 \| (Juan Julián Merelo Guervós)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) \| doc/Language/regexes.pod6	19:46
	¦ doc: Merge pull request #2112 from ronaldxs/reverse-suppress-capture	19:46
	¦ doc:	19:46
	¦ doc: Update regexes.pod6 fix reversed suppress capture operators ".&"	19:46
	¦ doc: Thanks a lot!	19:46
	¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/a3753c01a3	19:46
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El_Che	jmerelo: heh, indeed :)	19:49
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	→ Kaiepi joined	19:49
geekosaur	one could argue they have time right now	19:49
	not sure what they're doing out there, ight as well be on SO	19:50
jmerelo	geekosaur: yep, they are not doing much...	19:50
	I'm pretty sure that if they ask "How to win a match with a second-tier European team having the (arguably) best player in the world" will be voted down as "too broad"	19:51
El_Che	opiniated	19:51
jmerelo	Finished	19:51
El_Che	The Promise was broken	19:53
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drforr	You'd think there was a convention going on or something.	20:23
yoleaux	16 Apr 2018 13:31Z <Zoffix> drforr: you done a bunch of Perl 6 workshops. Do you got any advice to offer for what should be included in our Perl 6 Starter Kit? https://github.com/perl6/marketing/issues/14	20:23
	16 Jun 2018 18:38Z <Zoffix> drforr: a long shot, but is there a version of your ML talk with working sound by any chance? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GI9DmIbNXrM	20:23
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drforr	.tell Zoffix I'll give it some thought tonight.	20:25
yoleaux	drforr: I'll pass your message to Zoffix.	20:25
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drforr	.tell Zoffix I know of no other version of	20:28
yoleaux	drforr: I'll pass your message to Zoffix.	20:28
drforr	.tell Zoffix ... of the talk.	20:29
yoleaux	drforr: I'll pass your message to Zoffix.	20:29
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jmerelo	drforr: you've done a talk on machine learning?	20:31
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masak	why is EXPR upper-cased in the Perl 6 grammar?	21:17
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Geth	¦ perl6-most-wanted: c9b3fbbb5b \| (Will Coleda)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) \| most-wanted/modules.md	21:27
	¦ perl6-most-wanted: Update modules.md	21:27
	¦ perl6-most-wanted: review: https://github.com/perl6/perl6-most-wanted/commit/c9b3fbbb5b	21:27
	¦ perl6-most-wanted: c08f7c4cf9 \| (Will Coleda)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) \| most-wanted/modules.md	21:28
	¦ perl6-most-wanted: Update modules.md	21:28
	¦ perl6-most-wanted:	21:28
	¦ perl6-most-wanted: App::Uni was done ages ago: https://github.com/coke/p6-uni	21:28
	¦ perl6-most-wanted: review: https://github.com/perl6/perl6-most-wanted/commit/c08f7c4cf9	21:28
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Xliff	m: my $a = 1; my $b := $a; say $b.^name;	21:30
camelia	rakudo-moar cf10780da: OUTPUT: «Int␤»	21:30
[Coke]	is https://docs.perl6.org/language/modules#Upload_your_Module_to_CPAN up to date?	21:30
Xliff	m: my $a = 1; my $b := $a; say $b.VAR.^name;	21:30
camelia	rakudo-moar cf10780da: OUTPUT: «Scalar␤»	21:30
Xliff	m: my $a = 1; my $b := $a; say $b.VAR.gist.say;	21:32
camelia	rakudo-moar cf10780da: OUTPUT: «1␤True␤»	21:32
Xliff	How can you get the name assigned to a variable?	21:36
	And is there a way to determine if that variable has been bound to another?	21:36
timotimo	you can compare with :=:	21:36
Xliff	(The second one isn't as important)	21:36
timotimo	er	21:36
	=:=	21:36
Xliff	m: my $a = 1; my $b := $a; say ($b =:= $a)	21:37
camelia	rakudo-moar cf10780da: OUTPUT: «True␤»	21:37
Xliff	m: my $a = 1; my $b := $a; my $c = 2; say ($b =:= $c)	21:37
camelia	rakudo-moar cf10780da: OUTPUT: «False␤»	21:37
MasterDuke	m: my $a = 1; my $b := $a; say $b.VAR.name;	21:37
camelia	rakudo-moar cf10780da: OUTPUT: «$a␤»	21:37
masak	I'd say this, if you need to check whether a variable has been bound to another, you might want to step back and re-examine the premises of your program design :P	21:38
[Coke]	lizmat: you've probably uploaded more cpan modules than anyone, let me borrow you for 30s when you get a chance.	21:38
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Xliff	m: my $a = 1; my $b := $a; say $b.VAR.name;	21:44
camelia	rakudo-moar cf10780da: OUTPUT: «$a␤»	21:44
Xliff	^^ Is there a way to get that to say "b"?	21:44
	m: my $a = 1; my $b := $a; my $c = 2; say $c.VAR.name	21:45
camelia	rakudo-moar cf10780da: OUTPUT: «$c␤»	21:45
timotimo	you're overwriting the very existence of $b, at that point, no b exists any more	21:45
Xliff	That's what I was afraid of.	21:45
	OK, thanks!	21:45
timotimo	it could potentially be possible, if perl6 didn't decont when assigning	21:45
ingy	why is https://modules.perl6.org/t/SLANG so empty?	21:50
	I am thinking to make a Slang::Destructure to implement https://coffeescript.org/#destructuring in p6	21:51
	I thought there would be more slang modules	21:51
	hmm there are actually 9 slang modules. people just suck at tagging	21:52
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Kaiepi	there's no destructuring for stuff like hashes?	21:54
	m: my %a = a => 1, b => 2; my ($a, $b) = %a; say $a, $b	21:55
camelia	rakudo-moar cf10780da: OUTPUT: «a => 1b => 2␤»	21:55
Kaiepi	m: my %a = a => 1, b => 2; my ($a, $b) = %a; say $a	21:55
camelia	rakudo-moar cf10780da: OUTPUT: «a => 1␤»	21:55
timotimo	m: my %a = :1a, :2b; my (:$a, :$b) = %a; dd $a, $b;	21:57
camelia	rakudo-moar cf10780da: OUTPUT: «Pair $a = :b(2)␤Pair $b = :a(1)␤»	21:57
timotimo	m: my %a = :1a, :2b; my (:$a, :$b) = %a; say $a.perl; say $b.perl	21:57
camelia	rakudo-moar cf10780da: OUTPUT: «:b(2)␤:a(1)␤»	21:57
timotimo	huh	21:57
	m: my %a = :1a, :2b; my \(:$a, :$b) := %a; say $a.perl; say $b.perl	21:57
camelia	rakudo-moar cf10780da: OUTPUT: «=== SORRY!=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Malformed my␤at <tmp>:1␤------> my %a = :1a, :2b; my ⏏ \(:$a, :$b) := %a; say $a.perl; say $b. ␤»	21:57
timotimo	m: my %a = :1a, :2b; my (:$a, :$b) := %a; say $a.perl; say $b.perl	21:57
camelia	rakudo-moar cf10780da: OUTPUT: «1␤2␤»	21:57
timotimo	that's how	21:57
Kaiepi	what would be cool is an equivalent to something like "let foo = {a: 1}; let bar = {b: 2, ...a}" like in javascript	21:58
timotimo	m: my %foo = :1a; my %bar = :2b, %foo; say %bar.perl	21:59
Kaiepi	wait	21:59
camelia	rakudo-moar cf10780da: OUTPUT: «{:a(1), :b(2)}␤»	21:59
Kaiepi	m: my %a = a => 1; my %b = b => 2, \|%a; dd %b	21:59
camelia	rakudo-moar cf10780da: OUTPUT: «Hash %b = {:a(1), :b(2)}␤»	21:59
timotimo	no need for the \| actually	22:00
Kaiepi	oh nice	22:00
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buggable	New CPAN upload: IP-Random-0.0.4.tar.gz by JMASLAK http://modules.perl6.org/dist/IP::Random:cpan:JMASLAK	23:05
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Xliff	Can someone point me to docs for caller()?	23:48
	I need to get the call chain from within a method or sub.	23:48
geekosaur	if it's implemented yet, it's a wrapper for https://docs.perl6.org/routine/callframe	23:50
perlpilot	Xliff, there's https://docs.perl6.org/routine/callframe	23:50
	I think there might be a module (from lizmat?) that does caller()	23:50
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perlpilot	oh, I'm thinking of https://modules.perl6.org/dist/P5caller:cpan:ELIZABETH	23:53
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jnthn	Xliff: Depending why you want it, the Backtrace class may also be sueful	23:57
	*useful	23:57
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