IRCloggy #perl6 2018-06-24

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	2018-06-24
thowe	so I need this patch, or is there a way to tell rakudobrew to use clang?	00:03
jnthn	There's probably a way to tell rakudobrew to build MoarVM master instead of the version currently suggested	00:05
buggable	New CPAN upload: Pod-To-Pager-0.2.0.tar.gz by TYIL http://modules.perl6.org/dist/Pod::To::Pager:cpan:TYIL	00:06
jnthn	The PR was merged, so that should suffice	00:06
tyil	on https://docs.perl6.org/language/pod#Unicode, it shows the line Perl 6 makes considerable use of the E<laquo> and E<raquo> characters.	00:06
	these two entities dont get converted when they're passed through perl6 --doc	00:07
jnthn	Looks like the command may be rakudobrew moar-blead or some such	00:07
tyil	they should become « and », but instead stay laquo and raquo	00:07
thowe	hm. did rakudobrew build moar master and same problem. Did I do it wrong?	00:12
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MasterDuke	thowe: might want to ask Kaiepi directly. he was active pretty recently, so good chance he's around	00:16
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thowe	Kaiepi, any tips on getting running on OpenBSD 6.3?	00:28
Kaiepi	you'll need to build dyncall and install it manually	00:33
	install libuv from ports (not pkg, that version's too old)	00:34
	then you can build rakudo with --moar-option=--has-dyncall --moar-option=--has-libuv --moar-option=--cc=clang	00:34
thowe	if the pkg is too old is the port in the 6.3 branch?	00:34
Kaiepi	yeah	00:34
	also wherever you're running perl6, the partition its mounted on needs to have wxallowed set in /etc/fstab	00:35
thowe	I'll give all that a try.	00:41
	need a ports tree I guess ;P	00:42
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Xliff	m: my token word { \w+ }; (".field" ~~ /<word> ** 1..3 % '.'/).gist.say	00:57
camelia	rakudo-moar c441d8d8b: OUTPUT: «｢field｣␤ word => ｢field｣␤»	00:57
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benjikun	How do I use what's inside of a variable as the key when selecting something from a hash	04:55
	e.g. my line is `$t6.process('topic', :topic<$topic_title>);`	04:55
	where I want what's inside $topic_title to be used as the name of the key	04:55
	I can't tell if I'm extremely dumb and missing something simple	04:56
geekosaur	:topic($topic_title)	04:56
	(note parens instead of angle brackets)	04:57
benjikun	weird	04:58
	didn't know you could use parenthesis there	04:58
geekosaur	you can think of it as, whenever you have something surrounded by some kind of brackets attached to something else ("postcircumfix" is what perl 6 calls it), you can use <> in place of those brackets if you want to use a literal string there	04:59
	so %foo{'bar'} can be written %foo<bar>, :foo('bar') can be written :foo<bar>, etc.	05:00
benjikun	so there is no practical difference between %foo{'bar'} and %foo('bar')	05:01
geekosaur	uh? %foo(bar) isn't valid. hashes use {} for associative indexing, as arrays use [] for positional indexing	05:01
	colonpairs are a different thing; somewhat closely related to Hashes because they're effectively containers for Pairs (colonpairs being one of several syntaxes for Pairs), but not the same thing	05:02
	m: :foo(1).WHAT	05:02
camelia	rakudo-moar c441d8d8b: ( no output )	05:02
geekosaur	er	05:02
	m: :foo(1).WHAT.say	05:02
camelia	rakudo-moar c441d8d8b: OUTPUT: «(Pair)␤»	05:02
geekosaur	m: (foo => 1).WHAT.say	05:03
camelia	rakudo-moar c441d8d8b: OUTPUT: «(Pair)␤»	05:03
benjikun	I see	05:05
	thanks for the help	05:05
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thowe	Kaiepi, So I installed libdyn. Installed libuv port. Ran rakudo with the options you gave me, and I get the exact same error...	05:32
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thowe	I might not be calling config opt right	05:43
	hm, doesn't seem to like that I am using clang(?) I'm giving up for now	05:47
benjikun	Does supernovus still come on here?	05:49
lizmat	.seen supernovus	05:59
yoleaux	I saw supernovus 22 Apr 2016 23:27Z in #perl6: <supernovus> Well, I'm going to have to run. Have a great day/night everyone. I hope to fix up some of my long neglected libraries at some point when I'm not completely overloaded with work! :-)	05:59
Kaiepi	what error do you get thowe?	06:09
benjikun	oof	06:10
	2016	06:10
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jmerelo	Just created the `zef` tag in StackOverflow https://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/zef	07:28
	Tag wiki page will be online soon, and probably very imperfect. Please help improve it.	07:29
	You can also back-tag some Perl6 questions with zef.	07:29
	This question is apparently the first of its kind https://stackoverflow.com/questions/51005124/swap-first-and-last-columns-in-matrix "I can do this pretty nicely in Perl6, how can I do it in some other language"	07:40
	As in "some other language for native Perl6 speakers". I love that.	07:40
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tyil	jmerelo: thanks	07:56
	I wanted to tag my question with zef, but havent got enough rep to create tags	07:56
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jmerelo	tyil: my pleasure. I think you get it with 1500. You'll get them in due time.	08:01
tyil	yeah	08:02
	I'm not too worried	08:02
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tyil	I've been asking some questions lately regarding p6man, which I want to make use of in my (proposed) book	08:02
	I wonder if I can alter my TPF grant proposal to include more time, many have told me 4 months won't cut it	08:03
jmerelo	tyil: yep. Books always take longer than one initially intended.	08:03
tyil	I've also been considering to add the use of gitlab or github to the book, as one commenter asked about	08:04
	been testing out gitlab-ci with p6man	08:04
	and boy is it awesome compared to travis	08:04
jmerelo	tyil: that was my approach in my book: include everything you need to start to program: ssh, some command-line utilities...	08:04
	tyil: but then, I don't think if that's right for a TPF grant.	08:05
	tyil: I haven't tried gitlab-ci, but I'm happy with Travis...	08:05
tyil	you dont need to use git or a git service to start, but they're pretty neat to use	08:05
	with gitlab-ci you can specify which docker image to use, such as rakudo-star	08:05
	suddenly you have an image that contains all the tools you need without manual setup	08:06
jmerelo	tyil: but that's what we do in perl6/doc. There's a docker image, perl6-doccer, which we use to test.	08:06
tyil	for an end-user, that sounds incredibly useful compared to having to manually set up Perl 6 in each travis build	08:06
	jmerelo remembers I have to update the image to the latest perl6	08:06
jmerelo	tyil: you don't need to do that, actually. I mean, most people do since that's the "official" Travis image. I tried to change it, but no joy.	08:07
	Either El_Che's packages or docker images would be much better for that...	08:07
tyil	the official image isnt great for end users, building it takes about 7 minutes	08:07
	thats a long time to wait for a project whose tests run in a couple seconds	08:08
	also, perl6/doc uses https://github.com/perl6/doc/blob/master/util/travis-test.sh to get a custom docker image	08:08
jmerelo	That's why in perl6/doc we don't use (since February). We have 3 CIs set up, shippable uses rakudo packages, the two Travis use either a binary or perl6-doccer	08:08
tyil	not friendly at all for end users	08:08
jmerelo	tyil: That's only becasuse it's got two different CIs set up.	08:09
tyil	https://gitlab.com/tyil/perl6-pod-to-pager/blob/master/.gitlab-ci.yml	08:09
	I can add a different CI by just adding another key in the yaml file	08:09
jmerelo	tyil: this one is friendly https://hub.docker.com/r/jjmerelo/test-perl6/	08:09
tyil	the artifacts is completely optional, and just builds a zip with the sources	08:09
	the docker containers are friendly, but travis is not friendly in using a different docker image	08:10
	it requires menial manual labour to divert from their default images	08:10
jmerelo	tyil: but you are right, gitlab approach is a bit simpler than Travis, since you can specify the image directly. In Travis you have to issue a few more commands.	08:10
	tyil: can you use gitlab-ci from GitHub?	08:11
tyil	I'll probably update assixt some time in the future to add a .gitlab-ci.yaml	08:11
	I'm not sure if that's easily done	08:11
	I've dropped Github from personal use for future projects	08:12
	gitlab has been objectively superiour in almost every aspect to me	08:12
	and its not owned by a company known for shitting on their users in every possible position (though this was less of an issue when I decided to go gitlab)	08:13
jmerelo	tyil: I still have to take the step. Don't think it will happen any time soon. I have more than 500 repos in GitHub	08:13
tyil	I dont remove the github stuff because they're established urls	08:14
	but my new projects go on gitlab, and bigger projects that I still work on will probably move there for new work	08:14
	it needs better perl 6/pod support though, that's one of the things I lack on gitlab	08:15
	also, thanks for your answers on SO (and everyone else going around answering), I can continue on my projects again	08:16
jmerelo	tyil: it's not in GitHub for the time being either...	08:16
tyil	what is?	08:17
jmerelo	tyil: thanks for asking :-) I mean, it helps the community to have public question and answers	08:17
tyil	I'll probably be asking many more questions over the course of (at least 4 months)	08:17
jmerelo	tyil: the Pod support. Your PR was reverted...	08:17
tyil	ah	08:17
jmerelo	tyil: so you got the grant. Congratulations.	08:17
tyil	not that I know yet	08:17
jmerelo	tyil: then, good luck :-)	08:18
tyil	I saw something about the Pod PR, it needing another project's support as well	08:18
	for which we already had a PR open as well	08:18
	which was also being completely ignored	08:18
jmerelo	tyil: right. The linguist one. It's there, sitting pretty.	08:18
	tyil: sorry, the markdown one.	08:18
tyil	I should poke [Coke] about the grant to see if he can approve some of the comments on the TPF blog (and whether a proposal may be updated once posted)	08:19
	which I guess has been done right about now :p	08:19
jmerelo	tyil: I don't think so. But once it's approved you can change stuff if your manager approves.	08:20
tyil	ah	08:20
	that sounds alright to me	08:20
jmerelo	tyil: I don't know about duration. That's pretty much baked in.	08:20
	tyil: but once you get, it's probably a matter of talking to your manager. As long as you don't request more money, I can probably be done.	08:21
	tyil: BTW, you're going to Arnhem, right? I guess we'll meet there.	08:22
tyil	yes I do	08:22
	samcv will be coming along as well	08:22
jmerelo	tyil: that's great :-)	08:22
tyil	I even have a talk scheduled at the NLPW	08:23
jmerelo	tyil: and it's Squashaton weekend, so I'll tie you all to a laptop and will assign perl6/doc issues to solve :-)	08:23
tyil	but I have modules to make!	08:23
jmerelo	tyil: not that weekend! It's SQUASHathon weekend!	08:24
	squashable6: status	08:24
squashable6	jmerelo, Next SQUASHathon in 12 days and ≈1 hour (2018-07-07 UTC-12⌁UTC+14). See https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/wiki/Monthly-Bug-Squash-Day	08:24
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tyil	.tell jnthn would you have time to talk to me about something around 8PM paris time today?	09:24
yoleaux	tyil: I'll pass your message to jnthn.	09:24
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jmerelo	Calling a vote on the style of hashes definition in the documentation: https://github.com/perl6/doc/issues/2117#issuecomment-399742781	09:32
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benjikun	Why do some Perl6 modules get put into the Perl6 organization on GitHub?	09:41
	are there any requirements for those modules or are they just put there in the first place	09:41
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jmerelo	benjikun: when they are "abandoned" by their authors or simply started from the Perl 6 organization	09:53
	benjikun: also, when authors become part of the Perl organization they move it there. They are sometimes modules included in the Rakudo Star release, but not always.	09:53
	benjikun: baseline is, let's keep a close eye on them, since they are important.	09:54
benjikun	jmerelo: Ah, thanks for the response.	09:54
jmerelo	benjikun: sure :-) My pleasure	09:54
Geth	¦ doc/master: 8 commits pushed by (JJ Merelo)++	10:03
	¦ doc/master: 6659b44f20 \| brackets → parentheses and reflow	10:03
	¦ doc/master: 235d4792d8 \| brackets → curly braces, add example refs #2114	10:03
	¦ doc/master: 91aaa19339 \| brackets → braces, reflow refs #2114	10:03
	¦ doc/master: d1c2a1fee3 \| Reflow while checking brackets refs #2114	10:03
	¦ doc/master: a7f7c3907f \| Adds braces to brackets for common form refs #2114	10:03
	¦ doc/master: 8c9e45d128 \| brackets → braces, reflow refs #2114	10:03
	¦ doc/master: 4e3b3d8040 \| brackets get square, refs #2114	10:03
	¦ doc/master: d6f2079247 \| Unless more are found, all braces have been fixed	10:03
	¦ doc/master: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/compare/695771dfa5ab...d6f20792470e	10:03
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El_Che	m	10:20
jmerelo	El_Che: hi!	10:20
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benjikun	.seen zoffix	10:49
yoleaux	I saw Zoffix 23 Jun 2018 16:02Z in #perl6: <Zoffix> geekosaur: ToddAndMargo, `'abcdef'.match(/../, :g)` is better written (and is slightly more performant) as `'abcdef'.comb: 2`	10:49
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parv	is it possible to move rakudo install directory to another (e.g mv ~/x ~/y/x # & expect perl6 to work)	11:47
	?	11:47
MasterDuke	parv: not now. but it wouldn't be impossible to implement, and some people have done a little bit of work toward it	11:48
parv	ok. thanks, MasterDuke.	11:49
AlexDaniel	benjikun: there's also this organization: https://github.com/perl6-community-modules	11:50
	benjikun: and I see that some modules are in perl6-community-modules/ and others are in perl6/	11:50
	that's a good question actually… should we move some stuff to perl6-community-modules ?	11:53
	Pod-To-HTML p6-sake DBIish perl6-lwp-simple perl6-pod-to-bigpage gtk-simple perl6-http-server-threaded Perl6-MIME-Base64 perl6-http-server-async form perl6-http-server WebService-HazIP	11:56
	just 12 of them to move, if we decide to	11:56
parv	zef's README says to install it, do "cd zef && perl6 -I. bin/zef install .". Is the second . where zef command & its lib are installed? How do I specify an alternative install directory?	11:56
AlexDaniel	parv: if I'm getting it right, it is calling zef (bin/zef) to install itself (.)	11:57
benjikun	AlexDaniel: I haven't seen that before, is it mentioned anywhere on perl6.org?	11:59
AlexDaniel	benjikun: I don't know	12:00
	benjikun: but to clarify, I think “abandoned” modules end up in perl6-community-modules	12:00
parv	hmm ... I don't see any provision (in resources/*) to install elsewhere; have to relocate the files myself.	12:01
benjikun	I wonder what the age distribution for users of Perl6 look like	12:01
AlexDaniel	benjikun: why would that matter?	12:03
benjikun	It just seems like an interesting survey question	12:04
	I (perhaps wrongfully) associate "Perl," meaning Perl5, with older programmers	12:05
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AlexDaniel	benjikun: I guess I'm the example of a younger programmer, possibly the youngest in the dev team (in my twenties)	12:08
benjikun	AlexDaniel: I'm younger than you	12:09
AlexDaniel	:)	12:10
benjikun	I'm attempting to visualize Perl6's community	12:12
	I would've expected more than 418 coming out of this GitHub search: https://github.com/search?q=repos%3A%3E1&type=Users&l=perl6	12:13
	Searching for users of Perl6 with greater than 1 Repos	12:13
AlexDaniel	it says that I have no perl6 repos :(	12:15
benjikun	hm	12:16
	Do you tag them with perl6?	12:16
AlexDaniel	well, it doesn't count that one as my repo: https://github.com/perl6/whateverable/	12:16
	and this one is tagged but has no code files: https://github.com/AlexDaniel/6lang-golf-cheatsheet	12:17
benjikun	Hmm	12:17
AlexDaniel	and the rest is not very public really	12:17
	or is in perl6/ org	12:17
benjikun	AlexDaniel: looking at your website, I'd guess you're into computer security?	12:18
AlexDaniel	benjikun: I study Computer Systems Engineering	12:22
benjikun	ah	12:23
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parv	FWIW I just saw the messsage at the end of zef install which notes that it was installed in subdir of rakudo install. works-for-me.	12:32
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sarna	what does a backslash do here? `method foo(\s) {...}`	12:59
araraloren_	sarna it's sigilless variable	13:05
	m: my \s = 22; say s;	13:06
camelia	rakudo-moar e9351cbaa: OUTPUT: «22␤»	13:06
sarna	araraloren_: when should I use them?	13:06
El_Che	a constant?	13:06
sarna	oh, makes sense	13:07
	don't you uppercase all the constants?	13:07
araraloren_	https://docs.perl6.org/language/variables#index-entry-%5C_%28sigilless_variables%29	13:07
El_Che	(see the question mark :) )	13:07
	sarna thinks harder	13:07
El_Che	sarna: I don't	13:07
	sarna: It looks like C cargo culting	13:07
araraloren_	hmm, like constant	13:07
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sarna	El_Che: :^) alright	13:08
	I've never liked that convention anyway	13:08
araraloren_	If I declare constant with `constant`, I will uppercase that things	13:10
	m: constant PI = 3.14; say PI;	13:10
camelia	rakudo-moar e9351cbaa: OUTPUT: «3.14␤»	13:10
araraloren_	but with siglless variable, it's a special kind variable, IMO	13:11
sarna	is `constant c = 1` any different from `my \c := 1`?	13:12
araraloren_	IDK	13:13
El_Che	they are both immutable	13:13
	scoping probably?	13:13
sarna	do constants get any special treatment? constant constants	13:13
	ah	13:14
araraloren_	lifetime difference ?	13:14
El_Che	to be sure, do	13:14
	m: constant \c = 1	13:14
camelia	rakudo-moar e9351cbaa: ( no output )	13:14
El_Che	:)	13:14
araraloren_	m: constant a = 20; BEGIN say a;	13:14
camelia	rakudo-moar e9351cbaa: OUTPUT: «20␤»	13:14
sarna	m: constant \c := 1	13:14
camelia	rakudo-moar e9351cbaa: ( no output )	13:14
sarna	just to be sure	13:14
	:D	13:14
araraloren_	m: my \a = 20; BEGIN say a;	13:14
camelia	rakudo-moar e9351cbaa: OUTPUT: «(Mu)␤»	13:14
El_Che	m: constant \c = 1; c = 2	13:14
camelia	rakudo-moar e9351cbaa: OUTPUT: «Cannot modify an immutable Int (1)␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»	13:14
AlexDaniel	sigilless variables are not exactly constants	13:14
El_Che	it's about the container, isn't?	13:15
sarna	araraloren_: what's this magic BEGIN thing?	13:15
araraloren_	so, constant is available in BEGIN phrase	13:15
	Phasers	13:15
	https://docs.perl6.org/language/phasers	13:15
sarna	oh oki, I'll read about it	13:16
araraloren_	It's some special block	13:16
AlexDaniel	it's somewhat similar to “val” in scala, and those are typically not uppercased as far as I know	13:16
	or val in Java with lombok	13:16
sarna	yeah, or let in Rust (without mut)	13:17
araraloren_	haha, but Rust can define the variable more than once	13:17
	I hate this design	13:17
sarna	I mean, you can let twice	13:17
	you can't `let x = 2; x = 3;`	13:18
araraloren_	yeah, I know	13:19
sarna	is it good practice to use sigilless for immutable variables?	13:19
	I kinda like sigils	13:19
El_Che	sigils put emphasis on the container, imho	13:20
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sarna	ohh	13:24
AlexDaniel	sarna: well, you decide. I don't see code like this very often, but IIRC TimToady uses (or at least used) it a lot	13:26
araraloren_	I am not using that often too :)	13:27
sarna	I'm used to following the rules, I feel lost if I have to choose '^ ^	13:27
araraloren_	hmm, you don't have to choose, just use what you like	13:28
AlexDaniel	.oO( so what do I like? )	13:29
El_Che	pistacchio is a safe bet	13:30
	AlexDaniel googles “Pistachio nut allergy”	13:31
sarna	pistachios are so expensive though	13:31
mst	sarna: I've been enjoying doing 'my $x := 2;'	13:32
sarna	with sigils I know if it's a collection or a scalar	13:33
	and that was my biggest problem with other dynamic languages	13:33
	hmm, is it a string? a list of strings? a nested list?	13:33
mst	the difference between "for x in str:" and "for x in str,:" in python has always been troubling to me.	13:34
sarna	and then I'd get a "can't index an integer" at runtime :X	13:34
El_Che	on lang with strong typing it's less of a problem (or not at all)	13:34
	timo → timotimo	13:36
araraloren_	but you don't know what $x is in Perl6 too. I think	13:36
sarna	I had the most problems with it in Clojure, which is strongly typed	13:36
El_Che	sarna: really? That kind of problem is catched at compile time, e.g. in go	13:37
sarna	(I (think [I (might (have #(gotten [lost (in [the (parens [though])])])))]))	13:37
	El_Che: runtime for Clojure	13:37
pmurias	AlexDaniel: the demographics of Perl 6 programmers are sort of interesting	13:37
sarna	it's strongly typed, but dynamic	13:37
El_Che	sarna: is sounds as "it is, but not really"	13:38
	:)	13:38
sarna	El_Che: yeah :)	13:38
	it'll complain about types, at runtime	13:38
	JS generally won't	13:39
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El_Che	pmurias: go on?	13:42
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pmurias	El_Che: I don't know what they are, I'm just interested in knowing them ;)	13:43
El_Che	hehe	13:43
	yes	13:43
	:)	13:43
pmurias	benjikun: one interesting thing to measure about the Perl 6 community is what languages are the people coming in	13:44
El_Che	or the pessismist view: going :)	13:45
	and which langs they use next to perl6	13:45
sarna	pmurias: is there any perl6 survey?	13:46
El_Che	there a a generic perl one, but it was flawed	13:47
AlexDaniel	5lawed	13:47
benjikun	The perl one only mentions perl6 in one question sadly	13:47
sarna	:(	13:47
benjikun	pmurias: Would be nice if we could get more information on these kinds of things	13:47
	how about we make a Perl6 survey?	13:47
sarna	I'm in	13:48
benjikun	I could whip up a google form	13:48
sarna	how to be a successful language in 2018:	13:48
	1. have a cute mascot (go, rust)	13:48
	2. conduct a survey	13:48
	we have a mascot already	13:48
benjikun	we're halfway there	13:49
sarna	I think the survey is the missing piece	13:49
	yeah	13:49
El_Che	find a niche?	13:49
sarna	have you seen better glue?	13:49
AlexDaniel	benjikun: well, go for it? Perhaps come here with a list of questions/answers for some feedback before actually setting up a survey, I'm sure there will be some nice suggestions	13:50
sarna	benjikun: you can check out Clojure's and Rust's surveys, they're pretty good	13:51
benjikun	AlexDaniel sarna: Will do	13:51
AlexDaniel	benjikun++	13:51
El_Che	AlexDaniel: where are you based, btw?	13:55
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AlexDaniel	El_Che: Estonia	14:01
El_Che	the North!	14:02
	:)	14:02
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benjikun	https://docs.google.com/forms/d/19qSBpGWWc9RNruxPWySHkmy3tppaqeqUNGfZpHhdsMs/edit?usp=sharing	14:05
	Here's what I have so far	14:05
	anyone can drop in and make any changes / add new questions	14:06
sarna_	benjikun: maybe favourite/least favourite perl6 features?	14:06
benjikun	hmm, yeah	14:06
	What would you put for options?	14:06
sarna_	I'd just let people write it themselves	14:07
AlexDaniel	benjikun: I'd recommend listing Spacemacs and Emacs separately	14:07
sarna_	and maybe "most wanted feature"	14:07
AlexDaniel	benjikun: because a lot of spacemacs users are using it with vim keybinging so it's not exactly Emacs	14:07
benjikun	AlexDaniel: will do	14:07
	sarna_: sounds good	14:08
AlexDaniel	benjikun: btw there's a list of editors and their perl6 support, maybe you'd want to add something from it: https://github.com/perl6/user-experience/issues/19	14:09
benjikun	ah, good idea	14:10
sarna_	benjikun: "if you have used zef, do you like it?"	14:11
	benjikun: "do you use any authoring tools (eg mi6)?"	14:11
	also maybe "do you use perl6 at work" but I don't think we'd get above 5% on that	14:12
AlexDaniel	benjikun: “how did you install perl 6?” – Distribution packages (e.g. `apt install perl6`), – Rakudo Star, – Monthly Rakudo release, – rakudobrew	14:12
sarna_	benjikun: maybe "do you plan to try to use perl6 at work?"	14:12
timotimo	maybe make a distinction between "officially" and "unofficially"	14:13
	i.e. someone who writes ten one-liners a day to make their work more efficient would say "unofficially", but someone who develops a perl6 app/service for a client would say "officially"	14:13
sarna_	benjikun: "what areas do you work in?"	14:13
	I don't know if all answers would qualify https://blog.rust-lang.org/images/2016-06-Survey/demo_areas.png	14:14
AlexDaniel	benjikun: maybe something like: “Have you used Perl 6 in school or university?” – Yes, as suggested by course materials; – Yes, I chose to use it myself; – I study but had no chance to use it; – I'm not studying	14:14
sarna_	also, I'd include one field where people would just say what they'd like to add themselves	14:14
AlexDaniel	although I'd expect there are very few people who'd be able to give a useful answer to that	14:14
sarna_	AlexDaniel: I don't think any universities use perl6 (unless they allow any language and you just write perl6)	14:15
	my university will probably be like this and I'm planning on sneaking some perl6 into my projects :^)	14:16
AlexDaniel	sarna_: I've used it very successfully for a compilers/parsers course	14:16
	sarna_: and a little bit of stuff for research that I did here was in perl 6	14:16
sarna_	AlexDaniel: really? whoa, I slurp my words back then	14:17
AlexDaniel	sarna_: well, I chose to use it myself, but it was very welcome :)	14:17
sarna_	AlexDaniel: ah, makes sense :)	14:18
AlexDaniel	also there's a chance I'd give a “guest” lecture about perl 6 next year for that same course	14:18
sarna_	oo, good luck!	14:18
benjikun	sarna_: I'm not sure about what else to add to "What do you utilize Perl6 for?"	14:19
	it was my offshoot of your idea	14:19
	I have web development, general scripting, data science ...	14:20
sarna_	benjikun: have you seen this image I sent?	14:20
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benjikun	yeah, I see it	14:21
	some don't apply	14:21
sarna_	yeah, definitely	14:21
	I'd maybe add compilers/parsers	14:21
benjikun	mk	14:21
sarna_	text processing?	14:21
benjikun	some of these are subsets of others	14:22
	web scraping could be considered text processing, sorta	14:22
sarna_	yup	14:22
hankache	hello #perl6	14:22
yoleaux	19 Jun 2018 14:11Z <lizmat> hankache: I've unslipped a c in the weekly	14:22
sarna_	o/	14:22
hankache	.tell lizmat: Thanks a lot	14:22
yoleaux	hankache: What kind of a name is "lizmat:"?!	14:22
sarna_	:D	14:23
hankache	hi sarna_	14:23
	seen lizmat	14:23
	.seen lizmat	14:24
yoleaux	I saw lizmat 14:23Z in #perl6-dev: <lizmat> mostly mentioned in comments	14:24
hankache	.tell lizmat Thanks a lot	14:24
yoleaux	hankache: I'll pass your message to lizmat.	14:24
lizmat	hankache: you're welcome	14:24
yoleaux	14:24Z <hankache> lizmat: Thanks a lot	14:24
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AlexDaniel	benjikun: well, I just realized I can edit it myself, haha	14:28
	benjikun: sorry for being dumb :)	14:29
benjikun	no problem, heh	14:29
	What answer choices should I put for "Where did you find out about Perl6, originally?"	14:32
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benjikun	I'm thinking blogs, hackernews, reddit, unsure	14:33
sarna_	this post - https://www.evanmiller.org/why-im-learning-perl-6.html	14:37
benjikun	lol, it does seem pretty popular, doesn't it	14:38
	3rd result in google	14:38
sarna_	it's a good post :)	14:38
benjikun	Should we include a controversial question about whether or not they find the name "Perl6" confusing	14:40
	I've heard a considerable amount of that	14:40
sarna_	I think we should	14:42
benjikun	alright, I added it	14:45
AlexDaniel	“What is your primary spoken language?” wow that's a hard one	14:45
benjikun	I thought it would be useful for indicating if we need to translate more perl6 things to more languages that are underrepresented	14:47
	ooh	14:48
	we could make a question about rating documentation	14:49
AlexDaniel	I thought about that, yeah	14:49
benjikun	added	14:52
sarna_	hmm, I think we'd need something akin to the rust book	14:52
	a good english resource	14:52
	and then translate this	14:52
benjikun	I'd say `perl6intro.com` is our most-translated newcomer resource	14:54
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El_Che	primary language is very region dependent	14:55
	I think most duth speakers switch to english resources right away	14:55
sarna_	benjikun: it's not as thorough as the rust book	14:55
El_Che	dutch	14:55
AlexDaniel	yeah maybe that question is not needed	14:55
sarna_	same for any scandinavian language	14:55
benjikun	hm	14:56
El_Che	while for bigger language groups (like spanish or frnch), native doc would be more useful	14:56
araraloren_	yeah, for me I perfer EN version	14:56
El_Che	"Would you prefer the documentation in your native language instead of English? Yes -> which	14:57
sarna_	El_Che++	14:58
benjikun	El_Che: good idea	14:58
	sarna_ doesn't know how ++s work	14:58
benjikun	Alright, I've remade that question	15:01
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AlexDaniel	benjikun: hmm, what about “what is the version of your currently installed rakudo?”	15:21
	or something like that	15:21
benjikun	yeah, I think that could be useful for sure	15:21
	I dig it	15:21
AlexDaniel	huggable: deb	15:21
huggable	AlexDaniel, Alpine, CentOS, Debian, Fedora, OpenSUSE and Ubuntu Rakudo packages: https://github.com/nxadm/rakudo-pkg#rakudo-pkg	15:21
El_Che	"how often do you upgrade Rakudo?" Monthly, quaterly, yearly of less	15:21
timotimo	maybe also "how did you install your rakudo"	15:21
benjikun	timotimo: We've got that	15:22
El_Che	What is the source of your rakudo "self compiled", "rakudo star", "rakudo-pkg", homebrew, "provided by the distribution", other ...	15:22
AlexDaniel	El_Che: it's already there	15:23
timotimo	good	15:23
El_Che	ok	15:23
benjikun	what versions of rakudo should we include in that question AlexDaniel?	15:24
timotimo	does your rakudo run on parrot?	15:24
AlexDaniel	benjikun: that's the issue :)	15:24
benjikun	hmm	15:24
	timotimo: lol	15:25
AlexDaniel	benjikun: the list of rakudo stars is here: https://rakudo.org/files/star	15:25
timotimo	i think it hasn't been that long since the last time someone came in here asking for help with a parrotkudo	15:25
AlexDaniel	benjikun: and it goes back to 2017.07, but I think we can say “older than 2016.01”	15:25
benjikun	AlexDaniel: that sounds good to me	15:26
AlexDaniel	timotimo: that's like debian wheezy	15:26
benjikun	I'll add it	15:27
timotimo	maybe also some version of ubuntu	15:27
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timotimo	maybe a centos?	15:27
AlexDaniel	timotimo: wheezy – “from 26th April 2016 to 31st May 2018”	15:27
	timotimo: so in May of this year it was legitimately possible to come and ask about rakudo 2012.01	15:28
timotimo	so barely past its end of life	15:28
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timotimo	btw, we don't really have something for "long term support" of rakudo versions yet; when do we want to start with that?	15:29
benjikun	how hard would it be	15:29
timotimo	depends on how much work we want to put into it	15:30
	we might have to think about every commit whether it should go into an LTS, too	15:30
AlexDaniel	well, I guess we've been getting away without it because the language is still v6.c	15:30
	it's not the kind of LTS most expect and need, but it's better than nothing :)	15:30
timotimo	and commits that build on previous commits that didn't make it into the LTS are going to be double work	15:30
benjikun	hmm	15:30
timotimo	i haven't thought about it much, but that's how i reckon it would look	15:31
AlexDaniel	“Do you have a need for a proper LTS (long term support) version of rakudo?”	15:32
timotimo	oh, yes, good point	15:32
benjikun	yeah, that sounds good to throw in there	15:32
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timotimo	maybe add more answers than yes and no, like one that basically means "yes, but only because i don't know about use v6.c yet"	15:33
AlexDaniel	haha that sounds a bit wrong :D	15:35
timotimo	i think it'd help us figure out if our language versioning is useful to people like that, but i'm not sure	15:35
thowe	Kaiepi, error is here: https://gist.github.com/thowe/514c09e880077b150769d3ac6da3999f	15:36
AlexDaniel	benjikun: see also some comments here: http://colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_log/perl6-dev?date=2018-06-24#l84	15:36
benjikun	ah, will do, thanks	15:36
Kaiepi	thowe: try using egcc instead of clang	15:38
thowe	ok, i'll have to install	15:39
	Kaiepi, trying... what time zone are you in?	15:42
Kaiepi	GMT-3	15:43
thowe	so, east coast... you were up late last night :)	15:43
Kaiepi	yep ;)	15:44
thowe	tryna rebuild this old laptop so I can play with a few things while on small vacation. wanna build somethin in Perl6 to feed Influxdb...	15:45
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pmurias	timotimo: what commits do you expect to go into a LTS version?	15:49
timotimo	things related to security, surely	15:51
El_Che	lizmat: repeat the questions!	15:51
	:)	15:51
timotimo	other than that i have no clue	15:52
El_Che	LTS is something that a distro will stabilize on	15:53
	I don't see the point for a compiler	15:53
	the c/d/... version is how perl6 does lts	15:54
timotimo	OK	15:55
El_Che	timotimo: of course, in my humble opinion	15:55
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tobs	I'm kinda bothered by this: https://github.com/perlpilot/p6-File-Temp/issues/27	15:57
AlexDaniel	El_Che: I feel the same way, but I'm not so sure… debian comes up with a release about every two years	15:57
tobs	What I gather is that DESTROY shouldn't be used to clean up external resources, but the logs I read were quite dated. Was something done in the meantime to fix that particular case there?	15:57
AlexDaniel	El_Che: in these two years rakudo can diverge so much that applying security patches can possibly be a big trouble	15:58
	El_Che: and then every distro maintainer has to struggle with it in their own way	15:58
El_Che	AlexDaniel: that's the reason that a lot of projects offer packages for debian	15:59
AlexDaniel	El_Che: what do you mean?	15:59
El_Che	that debian will stick with a very old release on stable and backport the aboslute minimum	16:00
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El_Che	and that people running debian stable will use an alternative source (mostly upstream) for soft that require newer versions	16:00
	(new openjdk, etc)	16:01
	it's possible that debian stays on LTS -1	16:01
	things like rhel and centos will do tha	16:01
	t	16:01
	so'll you end up with lts -3 or -4	16:01
AlexDaniel	tobs: not in rakudo, I don't think	16:02
	tobs: I wonder if https://github.com/zoffixznet/perl6-Temp-Path has the same issue	16:03
tobs	AlexDaniel: thanks. I imagine most of the time (free'ing C library memory, e.g.) it's not a problem because the only time when DESTROY is missed is when the process exits anyway, but for external files it's a bother.	16:04
	I'll look into it	16:05
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thowe	Kaiepi, it builds now with egcc.	16:10
Tideflat	In theory, could Perl 6 be used to develop Android Apps because rakudo can compile to jvm?	16:11
timotimo	in theory, yes	16:11
tadzik	it dalvik's bytecode compatible with jvm's though?	16:12
timotimo	oh!	16:12
tadzik	it's not actually jvm on android	16:12
timotimo	you're right, we do require invokedynamic and i think android's java didn't have that last time i looked	16:12
tadzik	oh right	16:12
	I recall that being a blocker	16:13
Tideflat	thank you	16:13
pmurias	running the js backend on android with some effort should be possible	16:14
	(the js backend is still far from production ready tho)	16:14
timotimo	won't we run into trouble because android wants to manage the lifecycles of lots of different objects?	16:14
	i'm not entirely sure how all of that works, but doesn't it kill off parts of your data when your app has been deemed unnecessary?	16:15
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timotimo	anyway, there's always the NDK	16:16
	let java be your HTML	16:16
tadzik	:>	16:16
timotimo	finally, it pays off that java called themselves that because of the success of JavaScript, even though they are nothing alike	16:16
benjikun	timotimo: How hard would it be to make it possible to use Perl6 for mobile development at our current stage, anyway?	16:17
	Would be interesting	16:17
timotimo	i guess it depends entirely on how you want to speak to the android APIs	16:18
tadzik	(and if you want your mobile platform to be android :))	16:18
timotimo	in rakudo-jvm you can use classes to implement interfaces, for example	16:18
	and instantiate classes from the "java world" and such	16:18
	tadzik: openmoko isn't right for everyone ;)	16:18
tadzik	timotimo: :) I'm a happy sailfish user myself	16:19
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Zoffix	benjikun: ? did you want something?	16:19
	(re .seen)	16:19
timotimo	that's what i suspected, but i forgot and didn't want to assume	16:19
tadzik	I do make quite some use of the android compat	16:19
AlexDaniel	benjikun: “Have you written any modules for the Perl 6 ecosystem?” is this question needed? I mean, we can already gather these stats from the ecosystem	16:19
benjikun	Zoffix: The latest post on rakudo.party has 2019 for the year	16:19
timotimo	what device are you on?	16:20
benjikun	AlexDaniel: unsure, I didn't add it	16:20
tadzik	timotimo: Sony Xperia X	16:20
jmerelo	Just a reminder we have a straw poll going on how best to prescribe hash declaration in the documentation https://github.com/perl6/doc/issues/2117#issuecomment-399742781	16:20
AlexDaniel	Zoffix: maybe you'd have some ideas for https://docs.google.com/forms/d/19qSBpGWWc9RNruxPWySHkmy3tppaqeqUNGfZpHhdsMs/edit?usp=sharing	16:20
Zoffix	benjikun: thanks, fixed. Wouldn't want people to know that I'm from the future...	16:21
benjikun	^	16:21
	Zoffix: ha	16:21
tobs	AlexDaniel: I added that question but I wouldn't say it's needed.	16:22
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jmerelo	AlexDaniel: we can actually edit the form. Is that what you want?	16:23
	AlexDaniel: I would add "Perl conference" to the first question, and eliminate "Academic course suggestion"	16:23
Zoffix	AlexDaniel: this question is kinda vague "How many private projects have you written in Perl 6? (unpublished projects)"... What's a "project"? Are throw-away scripts with a dozen lines count?	16:23
	Maybe better to split it up into "do you use one liners a lot", "how many small programs <100 lines of code you wrote" "how many large > 100lines of code"	16:24
	Or just clarify what a "project" is	16:24
tobs	AlexDaniel: thought it was interesting in conjunction with the amount of time and frequency spent with Perl 6	16:25
benjikun	jmerelo: Yeah, feel free to edit questions as you see fit, it's open to anyone	16:25
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jmerelo	benjikun: maybe eliminate the question about zef. I mean, there's no other choice.	16:27
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jmerelo	benjikun: some of them that could be gathered from rakudo.org download statistics might be better suppressed. There are also github statistics that can be used (although they just include the last week)	16:28
AlexDaniel	jmerelo: why eliminate it, sounds ok	16:29
timotimo	i somewhat often just -I my modules, but that only works well with modules that don't have resources i think?	16:29
jmerelo	AlexDaniel: the whole survey is kind of longish. And I don't see what kind of information we can get from that. zef must be used by basically everyone, and if they don't like it, well...	16:30
	AlexDaniel: Surveys: the shorter, the better.	16:31
benjikun	jmerelo: True, but they can skip any question if they'd like	16:33
Zoffix	AlexDaniel: the answer for "Do you use Perl 6 at work?" confuse me. What does "unofficially" mean in that context? I'm responsible for choosing the tech we use and for some things I chose Perl 6. Is that "officially" or "unofficially"?	16:33
AlexDaniel	benjikun: ↑ :)	16:33
timotimo	wasn't that my (bad) suggestion? ;)	16:34
AlexDaniel	maybe something like “internally, but not for the projects we ship” was meant	16:34
Zoffix	that's just moves the confusion to the word "ship". We don't sell any software at work, but is pushing something we wrote for users to use considering "shipping"?	16:35
benjikun	What AlexDaniel said, for example, a system administrator using Perl6 without directly being paid with the USE of Perl6 in mind	16:35
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benjikun	perhaps that wording is unnecessary, though	16:35
	I'm not sure	16:35
Zoffix	I guess the point of confusions is this: some people who use Perl 6 at work aren't necessarily working in programming companies using standard organizational structures (my job title is Multi-Media Designer, for instance.... :/)	16:35
benjikun	Fair enough	16:36
Zoffix	Hm, "Yes, and we sell some software written in Perl 6", "Yes, for the software used by the company"	16:37
	So Edument people would choose the first one, and I would choose the second one	16:37
benjikun	that sounds like a fair change to me	16:37
	perhaps "Yes, internally" would be better for the second option	16:38
	or maybe that could lead to confusion	16:38
Zoffix	The "Would you prefer the documentation in your native language instead of English? What is your native language?" could be shortened to just "Would you prefer the documentation in a different language instead of English?"	16:40
	I want it in French, but it isn't my native language.	16:40
	:)	16:40
benjikun	Yeah, the first wording does sound bulky, changing it	16:40
El_Che	mmm	16:40
	you'll get different answers	16:41
	I would love more spanish/french/dutch doc	16:41
	but I would never use them	16:41
benjikun	lol	16:41
El_Che	do you want to know what people find lacking in their own perl6 quest or if they are empathetic to other people :)	16:41
benjikun	former	16:42
	although perhaps that could give us a stronger metric on the friendliness of our community (jokes)	16:42
Zoffix	El_Che: but the question is you prefer and instead of English meaning you'd rather read the documentation in some other language	16:42
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jmerelo	StackOverflow questions per month http://data.stackexchange.com/stackoverflow/query/850977/monthly-perl6-tag-questions#graph We're kind of reaching a new plateau, but we apparently need people writing books to populate SO	16:44
Zoffix	The "Have you used Perl 6 in school or university?" should probably be "Do you use Perl 6 in school or university?" and the "I'm not studying" option moved to be the first answer	16:44
benjikun	Zoffix: done	16:45
Zoffix	Thanks.	16:45
	Zoffix &	16:45
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benjikun	jmerelo: good catch, that could be pretty importance for people's first steps experience	16:49
jmerelo	benjikun: well, people start asking questions in SO when they're writing a book, apparently :-) Anyway, we need to expand the community so books are very welcome, hanging out in dev places too.	16:50
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benjikun	Are we ever going to include Linenoise by default for arrow key usage and whatnot in the REPL?	16:56
	jmerelo: I saw you in the issue mentioning that	16:56
	I think that arrow keys working are more important than tab completion at the moment	16:57
jmerelo	benjikun: Ah, OK. That's for sure. I guess that will depend on the Rakudo Star bundler. I don't know who's going to be the next one... It would be good, you're right.	16:58
benjikun	I see, thanks for the response :)	16:58
jmerelo	benjikun: sure :-) Thanks for doing the survey. It will be great to know more about the community.	17:02
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benjikun	of course	17:05
	speaking of the survey, how satisfied are we with it	17:05
	should we leave it up for suggestions longer or start sharing it for use?	17:05
tyil	jnthn: ping~	17:06
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jmerelo	benjikun: just release it.	17:07
benjikun	Alrighty, here's the link: https://goo.gl/forms/JXtrWDYFrV9ENW6x2	17:08
	I'll post it on the perl6 subreddit	17:08
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AlexDaniel	benjikun: there's “Option 8”	17:11
benjikun	oof	17:11
	will remove	17:11
	done	17:11
jmerelo	benjikun: can you share the spreadsheet with answers once they are coming?	17:11
benjikun	jmerelo: absolutely	17:11
jmerelo	I'll spread it in Twitter	17:11
	benjikun: thanks.	17:11
AlexDaniel	benjikun: “Can you type/use non-ascii characters” has to be a multichoice	17:11
	because very often it's a combination of more than one method	17:12
benjikun	AlexDaniel: is it not?	17:12
	do you mean checkboxes	17:12
AlexDaniel	oh, ye	17:12
benjikun	done	17:12
jmerelo	benjikun: shared in Twitter https://twitter.com/jjmerelo/status/1010934030143897600	17:14
AlexDaniel	benjikun: I think “Do you use Perl 6 in school or university?” should be rephrased a bit	17:14
	benjikun: imagine if I graduated a month ago, but used nothing but perl 6, what would I answer?	17:14
timotimo	will we seek to involve mailing-list-only community members in the design process soon?	17:14
benjikun	AlexDaniel: how about "Have you used Perl 6 in an academic course?"	17:15
	no longer indicating present tense	17:15
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AlexDaniel	jmerelo: ↑ what's the right way to phrase it?	17:15
	jmerelo: “have you used perl 6 in academia?” or something?	17:16
jmerelo	benjikun, AlexDaniel: I would simply say "in academia", since you include research in the answer.	17:16
	AlexDaniel: He. I was writing that answer...	17:16
timotimo	jmerelo: you're already publicising the form itself?	17:16
jmerelo	timotimo: right	17:16
benjikun	AlexDaniel: swapped the phrasing for "for academia"	17:17
jmerelo	benjikun++	17:17
AlexDaniel	benjikun: ok, now what if I graduated 20 years ago, what would be the answer?	17:17
timotimo	so when we edit the form, what happens to answers that were made before an edit?	17:17
benjikun	timotimo: They are still saved, google forms does that	17:17
AlexDaniel	benjikun: and let's say never used it, for obvious reasons	17:18
timotimo	OK	17:18
jmerelo	timotimo: nothing really. If it's changed, it will become one of a kind...	17:18
benjikun	AlexDaniel: I see where you're coming from	17:18
raschipi	Text is white in white background for me, let me try changing browser theme	17:19
	Still the same	17:20
AlexDaniel	IMO it's a good question that shows the state of perl 6 from a different perspective, and will allow us to evaluate the progress as we go	17:20
	but we have to phrase it properly otherwise it's a bit useless	17:20
benjikun	AlexDaniel: I swapped the last answer choice in favor of "I've had no chance of using Perl 6 in academia"	17:20
	still seems worded a bit messily	17:20
AlexDaniel	benjikun: now “I'm not studying” vs “I've had no chance of using Perl 6 in academia” ?	17:21
benjikun	raschipi: Not sure why that's happening, what browser(s) are you using?	17:21
	AlexDaniel: what if we just remove "I'm not studying"	17:22
AlexDaniel	jmerelo: ↑ ?	17:22
jmerelo	AlexDaniel: OK to remove that.	17:23
benjikun	there we go	17:23
raschipi	Fixed, it was the GNOME dark theme that was messing it up.	17:23
benjikun	Alright, now we wait	17:24
	I'm excited to see the answers to some of these	17:24
jmerelo	benjikun: Has anybody posted it to the Perl 6 Facebook group?	17:25
benjikun	jmerelo: Don't think so, I don't have a facebook	17:25
jmerelo	benjikun: OK, will do.	17:25
AlexDaniel	benjikun: maybe “(unpublished projects, not including one-liners)”	17:25
	or hmm I don't know	17:26
	no, scratch that	17:26
jmerelo	As a side note, there were more perl6 than perl5 questions in StackOverflow in the last 24 hours.	17:26
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benjikun	jmerelo: that's strange	17:26
jmerelo	Usual Perl amount is ~10 a day, usual Perl6 amount 2 going on 1 lately a day, so one order of magnitude. But there are bumps for Perl6, and dips for Perl5, so there you go.	17:27
AlexDaniel	benjikun: it's currently “older than 2016.01” but let's change it to “older than 2015.01”	17:28
jmerelo	It's not the first time it's happened, but obviously it does not happen often. And still the monthly average is way different. It's not only Perl6's merit, Perl questions seem to be going down lately...	17:28
benjikun	AlexDaniel: will do	17:28
timotimo	we could have a 2d graph where x is "length of window" and y is "time offset into the past" and have each pixel's color be "which perl had more questions in this window"	17:28
AlexDaniel	benjikun: 2016.01 was the first star release to support v6.c, bet first rakudo with v6.c support was 2015.12	17:28
	but*	17:28
	benjikun: so also please do add 2015.12	17:29
jmerelo	timotimo: er. Way over my pay grade. I basically have to ask in StackOverflow every time I make a change...	17:29
benjikun	done	17:29
jmerelo	timotimo: but anyway, the answer now is, almost every single day, Perl. Perl6 had a streak of 3-4 days without a question, perl had like 40 in the same period.	17:30
	That's why this kind of thing is unusual.	17:30
AlexDaniel	benjikun, jmerelo: ok, getting back to the academia question…	17:31
	let's say I studied one year ago, and some courses said “use any language you want”, but I didn't choose perl 6	17:31
	I had a chance, but I didn't	17:31
benjikun	l o l	17:31
timotimo	that's fair	17:31
benjikun	How should we word it to include that?	17:31
jmerelo	AlexDaniel: that's probably the case for everyone. I don't know of any academic course including Perl 6. Mine on cloud computing included a example of a Docker container with Perl 6	17:32
benjikun	we could just change it to "I haven't used Perl6 in academia"	17:32
AlexDaniel	but then we're getting back to the problem with those who were in academia tens of years ago	17:32
	and obviously didn't use it	17:32
jmerelo	AlexDaniel, benjikun: that's probably the right way to go. Something like "Yep, I've used it in academia (for research)" and "Yep, I've used it for teaching"	17:33
AlexDaniel	benjikun: o yea please include “for teaching”	17:33
benjikun	will do	17:33
jmerelo	Or simply "Yes, I've used it in academia" and "Nope, I haven't". Yeses are going to be very few anyway.	17:33
AlexDaniel	maybe we'll get 0 this time, but I'm pretty close to making it 1 :)	17:33
benjikun	alright, done	17:34
AlexDaniel	or, thinking about it, jmerelo is probably 1 already :)	17:34
El_Che	I have used Perl 6 under the covers (to find matches in text, find frequencies and stuff like that). But I haven"t release it to other people. In fact I gave Literature people Go binaries as I didn't have the time to explain dynamic languages to them	17:34
jmerelo	AlexDaniel: way to go! :-)	17:34
El_Che	so it's a tricky question	17:34
jmerelo	El_Che: so maybe a simple "yes"/"no" question is enough, without going into details...	17:35
AlexDaniel	jmerelo: context: http://colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_log/perl6?date=2018-06-24#l440	17:35
jmerelo	AlexDaniel: great! Congrats :-)	17:35
AlexDaniel	I still don't like the “Nope, I haven't” answer…	17:36
benjikun	AlexDaniel: what do you want for it to be?	17:36
	could we send out a tweet on @p6lert regarding the survey?	17:37
AlexDaniel	no	17:37
	alerts are for potentially critical and urgent issues	17:38
El_Che	there the regular perl6 twitter for that	17:38
jmerelo	AlexDaniel: We URGENTLY need to know the opinion of the Perl6 developers!!!	17:39
AlexDaniel	also it's down	17:39
jmerelo	Also: vote here https://github.com/perl6/doc/issues/2117#issuecomment-399742781 about hashes and how to talk about them in the docs.	17:39
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b2gills	jmerelo: You haven't been on StackOverflow long. I remember back when there was something like one Perl 5 question every couple days.	17:40
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AlexDaniel	benjikun: maybe additional “I had no chance of using it (e.g. I studied before the first stable language release)”	17:41
	I don't know…	17:41
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jmerelo	b2gills: Well, I've kinda-been, only not very active until now. When was that?	17:41
	benjikun2 → benjikun	17:42
AlexDaniel	jmerelo: halp! I don't know how to phrase that!	17:42
jmerelo	b2gills: and anyway, would you say it's going slightly down lately?	17:42
b2gills	Well, I am one of the few people who was in the Private beta	17:42
	user id #1337	17:42
	s/few people/few Perl people/	17:43
jmerelo	b2gills: that's one cool user id, as in 1337 hax0r	17:43
AlexDaniel	benjikun: “No, I have studied recently/am studying now and I haven't used Perl 6”, “No, I'm not in academia”	17:43
	jmerelo: ↑ does that make any sense?	17:43
benjikun	"No, but I have studied recently"	17:44
	"No, and I'm not in academia"	17:44
jmerelo	AlexDaniel: Really, I don't think including excuses for people not using it will gather any amount of responses. Yes and no are quite enough.	17:44
AlexDaniel	jmerelo: but just “yes” is meaningless without the details that we have now	17:45
jmerelo	I mean, academia is all kind of things, maybe including MOOCs and somesuch.	17:45
AlexDaniel	jmerelo: and just “no” will result in people saying “hey look, there's no perl 6 in academia” even if 90%+ of responders were never in academia after 2015.12	17:46
jmerelo	AlexDaniel: we can cross that "yes" with other responses if needed. And I don't think there will be so many after all.	17:46
	AlexDaniel: You wouldn't fare well as a political consultant. One thing is the answer to a poll, another how you spin it.	17:46
AlexDaniel	:)	17:47
jmerelo	I guess this is mostly for us. If we see there's not much use in academia, well, let's try to encourage that. If there's more than expected, let's try to help that with class material and stuff.	17:47
benjikun	That sounds good to me ^	17:48
jmerelo	AlexDaniel: no big deal, really.	17:48
benjikun	I'm not sure how we could encourage it, but I'm all for it	17:48
jmerelo	benjikun: well, I just submitted a (hidden) perl 6 talk to a Google Developer Group devfest that is going to take place at my university next November. So there¡s that	17:49
benjikun	The same for things like listing "Perl 6" as a permissible language on hackathon websites	17:49
jmerelo	benjikun: I'll also ask my university library to buy a few copies of Learning Perl 6 as soon as it comes out.	17:49
	benjikun: I mean, there's a lot of stuff that can be done.	17:49
benjikun	jmerelo: That's sweet	17:50
jmerelo	benjikun: BTW, DrForr is grateful in Twitter for having mentioned Perl6::Tidy	17:50
benjikun	:)	17:51
AlexDaniel	:)	17:53
	actually the current state of the academia question is fine	17:55
	maybe not that precise, but it should be clear enough for most people	17:55
	maybe I'd change “for myself” to “by myself”	17:55
	and “Yes, I give courses and I've used it for teaching”, or something like that	17:55
benjikun	Updated with your suggestions	17:56
	I think it sounds pretty reasonable now	17:56
AlexDaniel	jmerelo: ok now there's this old professor who's in academia for tens of years but haven't studied recently	17:57
	OK	17:57
	can we just have Other… field??	17:57
	that'd solve everything	17:57
jmerelo	AlexDaniel: hey, old professors study all the time :-)	17:57
AlexDaniel	jmerelo: hey speak for yourself alright	17:57
	:)	17:57
jmerelo	AlexDaniel: yep, that's sad, but true.	17:57
AlexDaniel	benjikun: so yeah, just add “Other…” and we can move on with our lives :)	17:58
benjikun	done	17:58
jmerelo	AlexDaniel: also, I take offense at being called "old". But at least you don't call me "ancient" :-)	17:58
	... or obsolete	17:58
benjikun	are you a professor jmerelo?	17:58
jmerelo	benjikun: right, full professor since 2009	17:59
	jmerelo shows credential http://directorio.ugr.es/static/PersonalUGR//show/85b5c4d470d438dae59a06db08bc4d97*	17:59
benjikun	that's nice, what classes do you teach?	17:59
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jmerelo	benjikun: cloud computing at undergrad and master's level, mainly.	17:59
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benjikun	ah, I see	18:00
jmerelo	benjikun: https://jj.github.io/IV and https://jj.github.io/CC	18:00
	benjikun: and I use Perl for pre-grading assignments in a continuous integration environment :-)	18:00
benjikun	sounds like the right kind of teacher :)	18:01
jmerelo	benjikun: maybe Perl 6 next year, but for the time being, the Perl scripts work pretty well.	18:01
AlexDaniel	these materials are really great except that I can't read them :)	18:01
benjikun	same, ha	18:01
jmerelo	AlexDaniel: They're in this barbarian language called Spanish :-)	18:01
	Yep, we don't have courses in any other language in our school, I'm afraid.	18:02
	benjikun: how are answers coming up?	18:02
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benjikun	jmerelo: 13 responses so far	18:03
	https://docs.google.com/forms/d/19qSBpGWWc9RNruxPWySHkmy3tppaqeqUNGfZpHhdsMs/edit#responses	18:03
jmerelo	benjikun: not bad, but we'll have to keep posting it here, in Twitter, Facebook, and the rest of the channels...	18:03
benjikun	you can view all of them in charts at that link	18:03
jmerelo	benjikun: also perl6-user mailing list. Do you subscribe to that one?	18:03
thundergnat	Hmm. Just looking the the Perl 6 user survey; "Have you written any modules for the Perl 6 ecosystem?" I actually have released exactly 5 public modules... should I pick 1-5 or 5-10? (decisions decisions...) :-)	18:04
benjikun	jmerelo: Yeah, I do	18:04
AlexDaniel	benjikun: is it safe to share that link? what if others edit stuff?	18:04
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jmerelo	benjikun: just closed up :-) Thanks.	18:05
	benjikun: can you send it there?	18:05
AlexDaniel	benjikun: aw crap academia question needs to be with checkboxes I think…	18:05
benjikun	thundergnat: Thanks for the catch, I fixed it	18:05
	AlexDaniel: done	18:06
thundergnat	benjikun: Also 6-10 and 10-20.	18:07
jmerelo	benjikun: very interesting answers :-)	18:07
AlexDaniel	do we need “Have you ever contributed to perl 6 development?” to differentiate between devs and users?	18:07
	or maybe next time?	18:07
benjikun	AlexDaniel: if you'd like, I can turn off the link sharing	18:07
jmerelo	And some people has not used zef. Interesting...	18:07
benjikun	I'm not sure if anyone in here would mess with us	18:07
jmerelo	benjikun: you can share it only for viewing, not editing.	18:07
AlexDaniel	benjikun: this channel is publicly logged, the link can be picked up by spam bots if there are any	18:07
benjikun	jmerelo: I thought so too, but I don't see the option now that I look under "Link sharing"	18:08
jmerelo	benjikun: maybe include docker containers in "how did you install Perl 6"?	18:08
MasterDuke	jmerelo: fwiw, i don't really use zef. i don't use many modules, so i just have moritz++'s perl6-all-modules checked out and -I anything i need	18:08
benjikun	jmerelo: will do	18:09
jmerelo	benjikun: maybe you can just unpublish it and then share the resulting spreadsheet read-only?	18:09
AlexDaniel	18.8% people haven't used zef. Amazing	18:09
benjikun	jmerelo: Done, will do	18:10
	https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wi2wY30yiIEJTqcoUa8321zW_KWZeDxx2T15g_WdE4M/edit#gid=23100692	18:10
jmerelo	benjikun: OK, that's perfect. Thanks.	18:11
benjikun	:)	18:11
	later on, I'll take a screenshot of the charts and or make new charts if you'd like (for viewing pleasure)	18:11
jmerelo	benjikun: I've requested permission anyway so that I can see the response summary too, if you don't mind.	18:11
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benjikun2	jmerelo: granted permission	18:13
jmerelo	benjikun2: thanks!	18:13
benjikun2	sorry about disconnecting frequently, internet problems currently	18:13
raschipi	AlexDaniel: Can you check the relation between n using zef and intalling from distro packages?	18:14
	not having used*	18:14
AlexDaniel	benjikun2: ↑	18:14
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benjikun2	raschipi: Out of the three people that chose "I haven't used it" for the zef question, one chose "Distribution packages", one chose "I've never installed perl6", and one chose "Rakudobrew" for the installation question.	18:17
jmerelo	benjikun2, benjikun: It's a great resource to know about the community, and many answers are kinda surprising. When we reach ~100, I'll try and do some analysis, including what raschipi wants.	18:17
benjikun2	it'll be nicer once we get a flow of more answers, for sure	18:17
AlexDaniel	yeah	18:17
	benjikun2++	18:17
	jmerelo: fwiw the unicode question is my doing, and I'm fairly confident no one will answer “Other…” :)	18:23
	I don't know any other way to input unicode characters	18:23
	please let me know if there's something else, I'd love to hear it	18:24
	jmerelo: fwiw maybe someone can use that list to extend unicode_entry page	18:24
benjikun2	You could manually type out the unicode ID for each special character you use, lol	18:25
AlexDaniel	benjikun2: that's listed as “alt codes”	18:25
benjikun2	oh, jeez	18:25
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buggable	New CPAN upload: Dist-Helper-0.20.0.tar.gz by TYIL http://modules.perl6.org/dist/Dist::Helper:cpan:TYIL	18:26
jmerelo	AlexDaniel: right, I hadn't thought about that...	18:29
AlexDaniel	benjikun: uh, ok more corrections :)	18:35
	benjikun: would you consider perl 6 bla-bla question	18:35
	benjikun: change it to “Do you consider”	18:36
	otherwise I guess there can be a misunderstanding	18:36
benjikun	AlexDaniel: updated	18:36
AlexDaniel	benjikun: then there's rakudo version question	18:36
	benjikun: but if you answered “I don't use perl6 anymore” then I guess it needs an option “no rakudo installed right now”, or something like that	18:37
benjikun	alright, added	18:38
AlexDaniel	benjikun: also in the header it should probably say “all questions are optional, so feel free to skip…”	18:39
	benjikun: otherwise there's an impression that the form maybe will not submit just because you can't answer some	18:39
	whew :)	18:39
benjikun	fixed	18:40
AlexDaniel	hmmm someone answered dead keys, but I don't know any dead key that'd result in a perl 6 operator… I should revise that	18:43
	maybe there's something for math	18:44
	but it's right that you can still use it for non-ascii variable names	18:44
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MasterDuke	i would suggest adding ruby as option in the other language question	18:48
AlexDaniel	MasterDuke: it's still possible through “Other…” field	18:49
MasterDuke	ah, right	18:49
CIAvash[m]	Why does the survey need a "Sign in"?	18:51
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benjikun	CIAVash[m]: Settings were changed since beginning, shouldn't now	18:55
	Yep, all good to go	18:58
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jmerelo	benjikun: some has voted down on everything... An unhappy customer.	19:00
benjikun	jmerelo: Probably a troll	19:00
jmerelo	I'm happy with the 7 mode the documentation gets. :-) 7 is fair. Let's try to push it towards 8...	19:00
benjikun	Me too, all things considered, 7 is pretty good	19:02
	Under the question about module requests, one user says "I'm not aware of anything rivalling Go's context use everywhere"	19:05
	What is Go's context use?	19:05
jmerelo	benjikun: that's probably El_Che	19:05
	I have no idea either.	19:05
El_Che	hi	19:06
benjikun	some concurrency thing	19:06
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El_Che	I haven't filled in the survey yet	19:06
jmerelo	El_Che: Then Sue Spence, maybe. Do you know what's that?	19:06
benjikun	El_Che: https://goo.gl/forms/JXtrWDYFrV9ENW6x2 when you get a chance	19:06
El_Che	"Are there any modules that you need in Perl 6 that aren't readily available? If so, what?	19:07
	"	19:07
	that one?	19:07
benjikun	Yeah	19:07
El_Che	The response does not make any sense to me	19:07
	(and I use Go quite often)	19:07
benjikun	I'm assuming they're talking about this: https://blog.golang.org/context	19:07
El_Che	yes, but it's that a module?	19:08
benjikun	hm	19:08
El_Che	pretty much all web stuff works with a context	19:09
	that holds the request, response, headers, auth, etc	19:09
jmerelo	El_Che: probably Cro does something like that	19:10
El_Che	I think go has 1 layer of indirection less	19:11
	I see what the poster meant if seen like that	19:12
	eg in a lot of go web mini frameworks you chain middlewares and handlers by passing the context around and eventually returning an error	19:12
	cro seem to use things like before and after in the handler block	19:13
	How do not now how cro handles threading in this case, but I find it conceptually easier to understand	19:15
benjikun	I see	19:16
El_Che	I do not...	19:16
benjikun	for anyone subscribed to the email lists, did you get the email I sent out?	19:16
El_Che	was the beginning of that sentence	19:16
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benjikun	should be titled "Perl 6 User Survey - June 2018"	19:17
timotimo	El_Che: if you don't immediately emit the result of your middleware processing, the pipeline will just wait until it happens	19:22
	El_Che: i.e. just do whatever threading you want, and eventually "emit" the result	19:22
El_Che	it looks good to me	19:23
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benjikun	41 responses to the survey so far	20:03
MasterDuke	hm, wonder if a question about interaction with the broader community would have been useful. e.g., do you actively blog, post on SO, hang out on IRC, go to conferences, ...	20:06
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benjikun	I thought about including one like that for IRC	20:06
AlexDaniel	maybe next time	20:07
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benjikun	we could include one-question polls that change frequently somewhere on perl6.org to make it less of a hassle for people	20:08
	not as unified or anything, but could be useful data nonetheless	20:08
	I've seen websites that do that	20:09
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p6noob	Hi, for Junctions, https://docs.perl6.org/type/Junction says "The type of a Junction does not affect the number of items in the resultant Junction after autothreading.", but in the next sentence it says "the compile is allowed to short-circuit autothreading".	20:35
	if a Junction result is always the same size until put into boolean context, where would it ever get short-circuited? It seems to me every element must always be evaluated in order to maintain the junction size.	20:36
	the compiler*	20:37
AlexDaniel	p6noob: yeah, confusing	20:38
	p6noob: can you open a ticket? https://github.com/perl6/doc/issues/	20:39
p6noob	Okay, will do	20:39
AlexDaniel	what it says is about right, but the phrasing can be clarified	20:39
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p6noob	AlexDaniel: do you any suggestion for an improved description of short-circuiting in regard to junctions?	21:00
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AlexDaniel	p6noob: hmm not really, I'd leave that to experts :)	21:03
p6noob	AlexDaniel: heh.. fair enough. thanks.	21:04
	fwiw, posted a doc issue.	21:04
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AlexDaniel	p6noob++ :)	21:06
Geth	¦ doc: 2c921344ce \| (Zoffix Znet)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) \| doc/Type/Junction.pod6	21:25
	¦ doc: Clarify junctional short-circuiting	21:25
	¦ doc:	21:25
	¦ doc: Closes https://github.com/perl6/doc/issues/2120	21:25
	¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/2c921344ce	21:25
synopsebot	Link: https://doc.perl6.org/type/Junction	21:25
tyil	LoneStar isn't mentioned as a way to get Perl 6 in the survey :(	21:35
AlexDaniel	benjikun: ↑	21:35
	tyil: I think those who use it can still use Other… field?	21:35
tyil	it wasn't a super serious downside :p	21:36
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turdmonkey	Hello.	21:44
tyil	hi	21:45
turdmonkey	Anyone go to perlcon?	21:51
	My work sent me. It was great. Larry Wall is a super nice and humble guy.	21:52
tyil	you mean The Perl Conference? or is there yet another one I havent heard about ;~;	21:52
turdmonkey	TPC	21:53
tyil	ah	21:53
	I'm going to TPC in Glasgow	21:53
turdmonkey	cool	21:53
	I met Randall Schwartz, too	21:54
tyil	there was recently one in Saltlake City i believe	21:54
turdmonkey	got he and Larry Wall's signatures on my books	21:54
	giggled like a schoolgirl	21:54
	yep that's the one	21:54
tyil	I went to my first one in Amsterdam last year, was great fun	21:55
	met a lot of awesome folk	21:55
	and now I have a talk scheduled for a perl workshop as well	21:56
	I want to do a perl 6 talk on FOSDEM next year as well	21:56
	pmurias had his presentation as almost the last thing at TPC::EU so he spent most of it super stressed out :\|	21:56
tyil	I hope I won't be too stressed	21:57
	it's my first public speaking event at NLPW	21:57
turdmonkey	tyil, I find that it's best to confront your fears head on. Just go up there naked already so you are in total control.	21:59
tyil	part of the crowd probably has seen me naked already	21:59
	does it still apply in that case?	21:59
turdmonkey	Not sure, that's a technicality.	22:01
	i'm having a weird issue when trying to run `zef install HTTP::UserAgent`	22:01
tyil	could you post the error in paste site?	22:02
turdmonkey	it says, "#NETWORK_TESTING was not set", and I cannot find anything with Google about it. Does anyone know what this ,eams?	22:02
tyil	oh	22:02
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tyil	if you set the environment variable NETWORK_TESTING to some truthy value, such as 1, it will run those	22:02
turdmonkey	ahh it's an env var..	22:02
tyil	those are generally disabled by default because they poke arbitrary 3rd parties	22:02
	and to allow clean installation even if network is dodgy	22:03
turdmonkey	hmmm	22:03
	is it something with zef, specifically?	22:03
tyil	no	22:03
	it's specified in the module's tests	22:03
	there's a similar thing with AUTHOR_TESTING, which generally does additional tests that are not guaranteed to succeed in generic environments	22:04
turdmonkey	How do I change it?	22:04
	like	22:04
	$NETWORK_TESTING=1 ..??	22:04
tyil	what OS are you using?	22:05
turdmonkey	Arch	22:05
tyil	AUTHOR_TESTING=1 zef install HTTP::UserAgent	22:05
turdmonkey	oooh	22:05
	Thanks.	22:06
tyil	no problem :)	22:06
	if it's not asked on Stack Overflow yet, and you want some free reputation, you can ask it there as well	22:07
turdmonkey	haha	22:07
tyil	(I'm serious on that part, we're trying to increase online presence, and SO is generally a well used medium to find answers to questions like this)	22:08
turdmonkey	Hm, I see.	22:09
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Geth	¦ doc: 46384a1c8d \| Coke++ \| writing-docs/STYLEGUIDE.md	22:59
	¦ doc: whitespace	22:59
	¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/46384a1c8d	22:59
	→ raschipi joined	23:01
	→ ToddAndMargo joined	23:03
ToddAndMargo	Hi All, I am trying to check if a directory exists. This works:$ p6 'say "zef.git".IO.d.Bool;' True	23:04
	But this throws an error: `if not {$WorkingDir}.IO.d.Bool { mkdir "{$WorkingDir}", 0o766; }` No such method 'IO' for invocant of type 'Block'	23:04
	What am I doing wrong, this time?	23:05
raschipi	It's what's on the tin, calling IO in a block doesn't work, you need to call it in a string.	23:05
	What's in $WorkingDir? It's a String, the name of the directory?	23:07
ToddAndMargo	So, remove the{} ?	23:07
raschipi	Just drop the braces	23:07
ToddAndMargo	works. Thank you!	23:07
raschipi	No problem.	23:07
	Any time.	23:08
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geekosaur	I see a misunderstanding here, that {$x} in perl 6 is somehow the same as shell's ${x}. it's not.	23:16
	in a double quoted string, { some expression } interpolates the result of that expression.	23:17
	m: "it's { sin 5 }".say	23:17
camelia	rakudo-moar e9351cbaa: OUTPUT: «it's -0.9589242746631385␤»	23:17
raschipi	ToddAndMargo: do you see the difference? {...} in Perl6 works like in C, ity creates a block.	23:19
geekosaur	or a hash, in some contexts; or as a postcircumfix, associative indexing (e.g. %foo{$key})	23:21
jnthn	tyil: Sorry, was afk pretty much the whole day	23:22
tyil	I noticed	23:22
	no worries, though	23:22
	it's not a matter of life and death	23:22
	you feel like discussing something in pm, or are you planning to sleep soon?	23:23
raschipi	m: if {"evalbot"}.IO.d	23:23
camelia	rakudo-moar e9351cbaa: OUTPUT: «=== SORRY!=== ␤Expression needs parens to avoid gobbling block␤at <tmp>:1␤------> if {"evalbot"} ⏏ .IO.d ␤Missing block (apparently claimed by expression)␤at <tmp>:1␤------> if {"evalbot"}.IO.d ⏏ <EOL> ␤␤»	23:23
raschipi	m: if ({"evalbot"}.IO.d)	23:23
camelia	rakudo-moar e9351cbaa: OUTPUT: «=== SORRY!=== ␤Expression needs parens to avoid gobbling block␤at <tmp>:1␤------> if ({"evalbot"} ⏏ .IO.d) ␤Missing block (apparently claimed by expression)␤at <tmp>:1␤------> if ({"evalbot"}.IO.d) ⏏ <EOL> ␤␤»	23:23
raschipi	m: if ({"evalbot"}.IO.d) { say 'so'}	23:24
camelia	rakudo-moar e9351cbaa: OUTPUT: «No such method 'IO' for invocant of type 'Block'␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»	23:24
raschipi	m: if ({"evalbot"}().IO.d) { say 'so'}	23:24
camelia	rakudo-moar e9351cbaa: OUTPUT: «so␤»	23:24
raschipi	m: if {"evalbot"}().IO.d { say 'so'}	23:24
camelia	rakudo-moar e9351cbaa: OUTPUT: «so␤»	23:24
raschipi	m: my $WorkingDir = 'evalbot'; if {"evalbot"}().IO.d { say 'so'}	23:24
camelia	rakudo-moar e9351cbaa: OUTPUT: «so␤»	23:24
raschipi	m: my $WorkingDir = 'evalbot'; if {"evalbot"}().IO.d { say "$WorkingDir exists"}	23:24
camelia	rakudo-moar e9351cbaa: OUTPUT: «evalbot exists␤»	23:24
	→ sno joined	23:25
raschipi	Sorry for the spam, I thought I was msg camelia	23:25
jnthn	tyil: Yeah, pretty soon...though if it's easy/quick I can :)	23:25
tyil	I'm not sure if it's easy or quick, but I can propose my question and you can decide whether you want to look at it later if you want	23:26
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ToddAndMargo	Thank you. The light bulb went off after you guys told me to remove the bracket	23:31
raschipi	ToddAndMargo: And 'not' wil coerce to Bool, so the method call is superfluous	23:37
	'if' will do it too	23:37
	I can keep going if trying to write more idiomatic code interests you, if you just want it to work, that's a perfectly fine line of code...	23:40
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ToddAndMargo	I use "not" a lot as it is human readable. It is for me not Perl	23:55
	what am I doing wrong now? p6 'if index "123rc456", "rc" > -1 {say "> -1"}else{say "no"};' Cannot convert string to number: base-10 number must begin with valid digits or '.' in '⏏rc' (indicated by ⏏)	23:55
Geth	¦ p6-sake: AlexDaniel self-assigned Parallel execution https://github.com/perl6/p6-sake/issues/9	23:56
ToddAndMargo	Ah poop.l not enought paranthsis!	23:56
	( index "123rc456", "rc" ) > -1	23:56
raschipi	For example, 'if not' can be spelled 'unless'.	23:57
ToddAndMargo	`unless` is harder for me to wrap my mind around. Maybe it is bacuase I am use to using `not` or maybe because I am a beginner	23:59
raschipi	No, it's all about preference and which one represents the problem better.	23:59

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