IRCloggy #perl6 2018-06-29

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	2018-06-29
geekosaur	Juerd, if you do reproduce it at some point, what does "locale" report in the shell at that point?	00:00
	tjhat shell, not a different one	00:00
Juerd	https://juerd.nl/i/4e15b239d6b33c973af964745ad712ac.png but still haven't been able to reproduce	00:01
geekosaur	in fact… stay in p6 when it happens and run: shell 'locale'	00:01
Juerd	I still have the same perl6 running but it hasn't happened again	00:01
	shell 'locale' gives the same output	00:02
geekosaur	probably only happens when something is initted the first time	00:02
	doesn't look like that should be a problem. I think	00:03
Juerd	Even if I replay the entire session it doesn't reproduce the internal error	00:03
geekosaur	lovely. thta sounds like some kind if memory corruption and it landed somewhere else	00:08
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perlpilot	Here's something crazy that happened today ... my youngest children (twins, boy + girl) asked me about programming. Since they use Windows, I downloaded notepad++ and the windows version of rakudo and showed them a few things.	01:55
raschipi	How old are they?	01:56
perlpilot	Just now (about 6 hours after I first showed them stuff), I go to see what my son is doing and he a a Perl 6 file in notepad++ with a grammar that he had typed in from someone's P6 talk	01:56
	raschipi, 12	01:56
raschipi	And it's not crazy, it's natural for children to ask about what their parents work on, I think.	01:57
perlpilot	that last sentence was the crazy part :)	01:57
geekosaur	still not very	01:57
	pop onto the web, look for interesting examples	01:57
perlpilot	Since I first showed them stuff, he's been on google and youtube and whatever he can find to learn more perl 6.	01:57
geekosaur	…bite off more than you can chew, most of the time >.>	01:57
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perlpilot	I only showed them about scalars, arrays, outputting stuff, if statements, simple looping, etc. and he's taken off with all the things he wants to figure out.	01:59
	It still seems crazy to me.	01:59
	Quite unexpected.	01:59
raschipi	jmerelo will wanna hear about them having p6 as their first language.	02:01
perlpilot	I was thinking about getting his book for them to learn from	02:01
geekosaur	sounds entirely expected to be, tbh	02:01
	to me	02:01
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geekosaur	at least, if it piques their interest	02:02
perlpilot	yeah, you're right ... I'm probably just comparing their learning programming to my learning programming ... 35 years ago from a book about BASIC. They've got way more resources at their disposal	02:03
	But also, I have another data point to compare at well. Their older brother was 15 and taking a class in school that used python, so i tried teaching him programming with python (it was the first time he showed any interest). It didn't exactly "stick" with him.	02:07
geekosaur	different strokes	02:08
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raschipi	I think it's due to ludic learning.	02:12
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raschipi	perlpilot: awesome history though, even if we don't find it surprising.	02:23
AlexDaniel	perlpilot: what about syntax highlighting? According to https://github.com/perl6/user-experience/issues/19 notepad++ does no syntax highlighting for perl6 files, is that correct?	02:24
perlpilot	It does appear to do some simple highlighting for perl6 files	02:25
	Well ... files that end in .p6 (I didn't try .pm6 yet)	02:26
AlexDaniel	huh	02:26
perlpilot	perl6 doesn't show up in their list of file types though	02:27
AlexDaniel	perlpilot: btw, I have a bunch of stuff done for sake :)	02:33
	was a bit distracted by things in the last two days so didn't even manage to push anything :(	02:34
	perlpilot: but otherwise it is looking great :)	02:34
perlpilot	cool	02:34
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buggable	New CPAN upload: IP-Random-0.0.7.tar.gz by JMASLAK http://modules.perl6.org/dist/IP::Random:cpan:JMASLAK	03:44
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jmerelo	o/	05:34
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benjikun	Does anyone know if there are there any modules built for sending emails w/ Perl6	05:39
yoleaux	28 Jun 2018 11:25Z <Zoffix> benjikun: Suggestions for next iterations of the survey: (1) For most wanted feature, invite people to be as specific as possible. 50 people saying "performance" is a lot less useful than a single person saying "performance of custom ops". (2) Add a comment field at the end "Suggestions to improve future versions of this survey"... ATM I don't even know if you're the right person to send this suggestion	05:39
	28 Jun 2018 11:25Z <Zoffix> benjikun: to. Like who's the author of the survey?	05:39
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benjikun	.tell Zoffix I'll keep those in mind for next time, me and several others from this IRC channel thought up the questions in the June 2018 survey (AlexDaniel and jjmerelo being some I remember).	05:43
yoleaux	benjikun: I'll pass your message to Zoffix.	05:43
jmerelo	benjikun: I really didn't have much to think but thanks for the reference :-)	05:55
	benjikun: it's going very well, BTW. More than 200 answers...	05:55
benjikun	Mhm, can't wait to get the next one to be able to see how many new users we get in how much time	05:58
jmerelo	benjikun: you want to do it monthly?	06:00
	BTW, here's the chart for files created per user in the Perl 6 repository https://www.google.com/fusiontables/DataSource?docid=16Gz5bSq2ARdPNLkXGY3bW_GKBdonoSW4__ygnKTC	06:00
benjikun	jmerelo: Not sure yet, it would be nice for sure	06:00
	Do you think everyone would do it every month?	06:00
jmerelo	benjikun: probably quarterly would be less tiresome	06:01
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jmerelo	Here's another view: https://www.google.com/fusiontables/DataSource?docid=16Gz5bSq2ARdPNLkXGY3bW_GKBdonoSW4__ygnKTC, including a pie chart. 64% of the files were created by [Coke]	06:02
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jmerelo	Average score for the documentation is not at 6.87. That's a B-	06:11
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benjikun	jmerelo: I don't have permission to view that page	06:13
jmerelo	benjikun: try now https://www.google.com/fusiontables/DataSource?docid=16Gz5bSq2ARdPNLkXGY3bW_GKBdonoSW4__ygnKTC	06:23
benjikun	works now :)	06:23
buggable	New CPAN upload: Text-BorderedBlock-0.1.0.tar.gz by TYIL https://cpan.metacpan.org/authors/id/T/TY/TYIL/Perl6/Text-BorderedBlock-0.1.0.tar.gz	06:24
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jmerelo	Hey, diegok !	06:26
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jmerelo	Another illustration on the Perl 6 repo: days needed for 100 commits https://github.com/JJ/TPF-Grant/blob/master/illos/days-100-commits-log.png	06:51
	Lately it hovers around ~ 10 days, but a few commits ago was the second best ever: 3 odd days. Best ever, you see the dip, 2 days and change.	06:52
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jmerelo	benjikun: did you close the survey? Do you intend to write some report?	07:06
benjikun	jmerelo: Yeah, I made a GitHub repo under perl6/p6survey with the final results.	07:06
jmerelo	benjikun: great!	07:07
benjikun	:)	07:07
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cog	benjikun, the page "what platforms..." does not display the platform names (as displayed on chrome/ubuntu)	08:00
benjikun	cog: Put your mouse over the bars	08:00
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cog	thx	08:04
benjikun	np :)	08:05
Tison	nqp: my $y := 42; $y.defined()	08:07
camelia	nqp-moarvm: OUTPUT: «Cannot find method 'defined': no method cache and no .^find_method␤ at <tmp>:1 (<ephemeral file>:<mainline>)␤ from gen/moar/stage2/NQPHLL.nqp:1566 (/home/camelia/rakudo-m-inst-2/share/nqp/lib/NQPHLL.moarvm:eval)␤ from gen/moar/stage2/NQPHLL.nqp:1805 (…»	08:07
Tison	https://github.com/perl6/nqp/blob/9eda6a020886220cb297909f7ea5330a9568f034/src/core/NQPMu.nqp#L82-L84	08:07
	We do have a `defined` method in NQPMu, why NQP complains that there is no?	08:08
	or $y is not a NQPMu? which is more strange	08:08
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Tison	It blocks this fix and I'll appreciate it for any help (https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/255b8dd7e7dd8b5316ab203958352ec8de0d9a76)	08:21
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tyil	is there a tool to convert all texas ops in a perl 6 file to their unicode equivalents (if possible)	08:44
lizmat	not afaik (module opportunity!!)	08:49
pmurias	shouldn't it be a Perl6::Tidy feature?	08:50
El_Che	(I would prefer the other way around, if you're writing a modules anyway :) )	08:51
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tyil	I'm writing plenty of modules, nothing for this (yet) tho	08:51
	I'm testing out comma, but it doesnt automatically convert texas to unicode (yet?), which I had in vim	08:52
	and everyone agrees that unicode ops are awesome	08:52
	so I'm looking for an alternative that's easily used to convert texas to unicode ops now	08:53
buggable	New CPAN upload: Object-Trampoline-0.0.2.tar.gz by ELIZABETH http://modules.perl6.org/dist/Object::Trampoline:cpan:ELIZABETH	09:04
El_Che	tyil: ** - 1	09:05
	:)	09:05
tyil	that would be so much prettier with superscript - 1 and leaving out the **	09:05
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jkramer	What's a texas op?	09:37
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robertle	an ascii variant of a unicode op	09:39
jkramer	Is that the official term? I've never heard that before :)	09:40
robertle	so eg 'atomic-inc-fetch', for which there is also a neat unicode one	09:40
	I can't type the unicode one however, since I'm from texas (apparently)	09:40
jkramer	I don't get it, must be some inside joke I guess? :)	09:45
robertle	perhaps not a joke, but just lack of a better name	09:49
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robertle	but many operators have two ways to write them: one using unicode and one using a narrow character set that you can easily type on a US keyboard	09:50
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jmerelo	robertle: all of them, in fact.	09:52
lizmat	jkramer: texas op is the old name of ascii op	09:53
	jkramer: it was an inside joke, deemed to be too inside so it was removed as a reference: instead "ascii op" is used now	09:54
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jkramer	Thanks for the clarification :)	09:55
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sarna	hey, I have a list of things and want to call a function that would take things from this list as arguments. is there an easy way of doing this?	10:40
tadzik	\|@args should do what you want, iirc	10:41
sarna	foo(bar, @a) -> bar(@a[0], @a[1]..)	10:41
	oh thanks, I'll look into it :)	10:41
moritz	correct	10:41
tadzik	m: sub a($a, $b, $c) { $a + $b + $c }; my @args = 4, 5, 6; say a(\|@args)	10:41
camelia	rakudo-moar 587cd4f9e: OUTPUT: «15␤»	10:41
sarna	where can I find docs on this?	10:42
jmerelo	sarna: in the docs :-) https://docs.perl6.or6	10:43
	sarna: look up "Signatures"	10:43
tadzik	https://docs.perl6.org/routine/\|	10:43
	tadzik is mildly amused that this is a valid URL	10:43
sarna	jmerelo: ah thanks, I forgot how these things were called :)	10:44
	tadzik: nice	10:44
tadzik	I like your nickname, are you aware of its polish meaning? :)	10:45
sarna	tadzik: yeah, as you can see I'm half-polish myself	10:45
tadzik	ah, that explains it :)	10:45
jmerelo	tadzik: It would mean "itch" in Spanish. What does it mean in Polish?	10:45
sarna	(the other half is polish too)	10:45
tadzik	jmerelo: it's "roe", the animal	10:45
sarna	jmerelo: roe deer	10:45
tadzik	I didn't actually know the english word until I checked it just now	10:46
jmerelo	tadzik: definitely more beautiful than itch.	10:46
sarna	same, I kept saying "deer" until I realised it's a different anumal	10:46
tadzik	quite :P	10:46
sarna	jmerelo: well, I prefer to link its spanish meaning with a Bukowski's poem	10:47
	"excuses"	10:47
	"burning itch from hell" that pushes artists to be creative sounds way better than rabies	10:49
El_Che	jmerelo: it's not "itch", it "scabies"	10:50
sarna	scabies!	10:50
	not rabies. heck, haven't woken up yet	10:50
El_Che	I would post a link to the little guy, but I won't :)	10:50
	thank me later :)	10:50
jmerelo	sarna: actually, that's one of the drivers of free software. Scratch one's itch.	10:50
sarna	El_Che: little guy?	10:51
jmerelo	El_Che: OK, technically it's scabies, but it's more generically used meaning "itch"	10:51
El_Che	jmerelo: you sound like microsoft: the GPL is like scabies	10:51
	:)	10:51
jmerelo	El_Che: Like "Sarna con gusto no pica". You can't get scabies _and_ like it.	10:51
sarna	jmerelo: :D	10:51
El_Che	jmerelo: in Spain, a smallish far-away country in the hipanic worl community	10:51
	:)	10:51
	world	10:51
jmerelo	El_Che: :-)	10:52
	El_Che: which has proceeded, against all previews, to the next phase in the World Cup	10:52
El_Che	I must close the google images page now	10:52
	jmerelo: yes, Spain can do so much better	10:52
jmerelo	El_Che: and much worse... But congrats, Belgium has gone ahead too :-)	10:53
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El_Che	nowadays is better than Germany good enough	10:53
sarna	El_Che: where are you from? if you don't mind me asking	10:53
El_Che	sarna: .be, with hispanic roots	10:54
	jmerelo: I watched the Chile-Spain match in Lond 4 years ago	10:55
sarna	El_Che: I see :)	10:55
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El_Che	sarna: I went back to uni (without attending classes) in order to write spanish, because my education was in dutch	10:56
jmerelo	El_Che: Hey, I was in London too! On my way from the airport, actually :-)	10:56
El_Che	lol	10:56
	I was ther for work	10:56
	but we found a South-American place full with Spanish people :)	10:57
	it was nice	10:57
	I almost mixed a plane to Australia from London	10:57
Zoffix	.tell Tison don't know much about it, but I'd assume 42 is an unboxed int and not an object, which is why it ain't got that method and I'd presume there's no auto-boxing in nqp, like we got in Perl 6. For example, nqp::objprimspec($y) returns 1 (for objects it's 0). You can just write nqp::isconcrete($y) instead of .defined (in nqp at least, in Perl 6 .defined is different). Or if you have to use .defined then	10:57
yoleaux	05:43Z <benjikun> Zoffix: I'll keep those in mind for next time, me and several others from this IRC channel thought up the questions in the June 2018 survey (AlexDaniel and jjmerelo being some I remember).	10:57
Zoffix	say(nqp::objprimspec($y) \|\| $y.defined)	10:57
El_Che	we were watching the penalies	10:57
yoleaux	Zoffix: I'll pass your message to Tison.	10:58
El_Che	finale	10:58
Zoffix	.tell Tison say(nqp::objprimspec($y) \|\| $y.defined)	10:58
yoleaux	Zoffix: I'll pass your message to Tison.	10:58
El_Che	it takes some time to your brain to recognize they are calling your names through the speakers	10:58
jmerelo	El_Che: He. Also, pronunciation might not help	10:58
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sarna	El_Che: in poland I was stuck with german :(	10:59
Tison	yes	10:59
yoleaux	10:57Z <Zoffix> Tison: don't know much about it, but I'd assume 42 is an unboxed int and not an object, which is why it ain't got that method and I'd presume there's no auto-boxing in nqp, like we got in Perl 6. For example, nqp::objprimspec($y) returns 1 (for objects it's 0). You can just write nqp::isconcrete($y) instead of .defined (in nqp at least, in Perl 6 .defined is different). Or if you have to use .defined then	10:59
	10:58Z <Zoffix> Tison: say(nqp::objprimspec($y) \|\| $y.defined)	10:59
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sarna	El_Che: maybe I should learn spanish/portuguese though, now after I've moved I've been mistaken for a spaniard/portuguese a couple of times	10:59
Tison	I use nqp::isconcrete instead in the recent commit	10:59
El_Che	sarna: I remember getting a lot of beers from Israeli people when I was in Brasil	11:01
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El_Che	sarna: it was their independence day and I learnt a few words	11:01
	good for when you travel on low budget :)	11:01
sarna	El_Che: woo!	11:01
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El_Che	sarna: spent a little short of 2 years backpacking	11:02
	not a lot of budget	11:02
sarna	El_Che: I'm really digging the multinational community here, it's so different from poland	11:02
	(I've moved to denmark for uni)	11:02
El_Che	I learnt some good card tricks that gets you free beer :)	11:02
jmerelo	El_Che: quite an experience, I'm sure...	11:02
El_Che	sarna: I can imagine	11:02
	jmerelo: very formative, specially for understanding Latin America (and also South-East Asia was interesting)	11:03
	jmerelo: being in a village in Latin America where no one speaks spanish is interesting (education and culture is very eurocentric on most places)	11:04
	sarna: where in .dk are you?	11:04
sarna	El_Che: northern jutland	11:05
El_Che	nice	11:05
	you can take the boat to Sweden :)	11:06
sarna	oslo is pretty close too :)	11:06
El_Che	I have family in Århus	11:06
sarna	I'm in another double A city	11:07
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El_Che	Ålborg?	11:07
sarna	yeah. don't write it with an Å though, the locals don't like it :D	11:08
El_Che	really?	11:08
	I learnt something today :)	11:08
	Swedish spelling or something?	11:08
sarna	no, Danish. there was a spelling reform though, a lot of cities retained their old names	11:09
	(in anything other than city names Aa transformed into Å)	11:09
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El_Che	so AA is older than Å?	11:10
	(linguistically I would have expected the other direction)	11:10
	(no always though)	11:10
sarna	yeah, in old danish everything's spelled with 'aa'	11:11
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El_Che	dutch when from aa to a pronounce as aa on some situations	11:11
sarna	Aabenraa is my favorite city name here :D	11:12
jmerelo	El_Che: not really. pairs of letters precede letters with stuff on them ij → y, nn → ñ...	11:12
El_Che	os -> ô	11:12
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sarna	m: my $apply = sub(&func, @args) {&func \|@args}; say $apply(&[+], <1 2>);	11:18
camelia	rakudo-moar 587cd4f9e: OUTPUT: «=== SORRY!=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Variable '@args' is not declared␤at <tmp>:1␤------> my $apply = sub(&func, ⏏ @args) {&func \|@args}; say $apply(&[+], ␤»	11:18
sarna	it compiled on my machine D:	11:19
	hmm, it works as two separate lines	11:19
	m: my $apply = sub (&func, @args) {&func \|@args}; say $apply(&[+], <1 2>);	11:20
camelia	rakudo-moar 587cd4f9e: OUTPUT: «any(sub infix:<+> ($?, $?, *%) { #`(Sub+{is-pure}+{Precedence}\|31100208) ... }, (1 2))␤»	11:20
sarna	now! why isn't + applied to 1 and 2?	11:20
jmerelo	sarna: [+] is actually two functions, the [ ] and the +. I'm not sure & would be a pointer to that composition.	11:21
ilmari	my $apply = sub (&func, @args) { func(\|@args) }; say $apply(&[+], <1 2>);	11:21
evalable6	ilmari, rakudo-moar 587cd4f9e: OUTPUT: «3␤»	11:21
ilmari	my $apply = sub (&func, @args) { func(\|@args) }; say $apply(&[+], <1 2 3 4>);	11:21
	m: my $apply = sub (&func, @args) { func(\|@args) }; say $apply(&[+], <1 2 3 4>);	11:22
camelia	rakudo-moar 587cd4f9e: OUTPUT: «Too many positionals passed; expected 0 to 2 arguments but got 4␤ in sub at <tmp> line 1␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»	11:22
jmerelo	m: my $apply = sub (&func, *@args) { func(\|@args) }; say $apply(&[+], <1 2 3 4>);	11:22
camelia	rakudo-moar 587cd4f9e: OUTPUT: «Too many positionals passed; expected 0 to 2 arguments but got 4␤ in sub at <tmp> line 1␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»	11:22
sarna	jmerelo: don't I need to wrap infix functions in []?	11:22
	ilmari: thanks!	11:23
jmerelo	sarna: yep, right. It might work.	11:23
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Zoffix	sarna: `sub(…)` makes it think you're trying to call a routine named `sub` you need a space there. `&func` refers to `&func` as a noun, if you want to call it (i.e. use it as a verb), omit the `&`. And then parentheses are optional (unless you're using other sigils). Also, a Capture is better suited for passing arbitrary args to routines	11:29
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Zoffix	m: my &apply = sub (&func, \|c) { func \|c }; say apply &[+], <1 2 3 4>;	11:30
camelia	rakudo-moar 587cd4f9e: OUTPUT: «4␤»	11:30
Zoffix	m: my \apply = sub (&func, \|c) { func \|c }; say apply.(&[+], <1 2 3 4>);	11:30
camelia	rakudo-moar 587cd4f9e: OUTPUT: «4␤»	11:30
sarna	Zoffix: verbs and nouns in a programming language? :D	11:30
Zoffix	sarna: its creator is a linguist by trade :)	11:30
masak	m: &[+](<1 2 3 4>)	11:30
camelia	rakudo-moar 587cd4f9e: ( no output )	11:30
masak	m: say &[+](<1 2 3 4>)	11:30
camelia	rakudo-moar 587cd4f9e: OUTPUT: «4␤»	11:30
masak	guessing it takes .elems	11:31
	m: say <1 2 3 4>.reduce(&[+])	11:31
camelia	rakudo-moar 587cd4f9e: OUTPUT: «10␤»	11:31
Zoffix	s: &[+], \(<1 2 3 4>)	11:31
SourceBaby	Zoffix, Sauce is at https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/587cd4f9e/src/core/Numeric.pm6#L205	11:31
timotimo	sarna: the problem with &func \|@args was that it was parsed as &func \| @args, which gave you a junction	11:31
Zoffix	just a .Numeric	11:31
masak	yes, but .Numeric on a list-y thing... :)	11:32
Zoffix	m: my \apply = sub (&func, *@a) { func \|@a }; say apply.(&[+], <1 2 3 4>);	11:32
camelia	rakudo-moar 587cd4f9e: OUTPUT: «Too many positionals passed; expected 0 to 2 arguments but got 4␤ in sub at <tmp> line 1␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»	11:32
Zoffix	m: my \apply = sub (&func, \|c) { [[&func]] \|c }; say apply.(&[+], <1 2 3 4>);	11:33
camelia	rakudo-moar 587cd4f9e: OUTPUT: «4␤»	11:33
sarna	timotimo: ohh	11:33
Zoffix	m: my \apply = sub (&func, *@a) { [[&func]] \|@a }; say apply.(&[+], <1 2 3 4>);	11:34
camelia	rakudo-moar 587cd4f9e: OUTPUT: «10␤»	11:34
Zoffix	\o/	11:34
	sarna: OK, never mind my comment about Captures. Evidently it's not the best thing in this situation :)	11:34
	Zoffix &	11:34
	← Zoffix left	11:34
sarna	also, calling apply with a dot isn't ideal	11:35
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timotimo	you have to put a . there because apply(...) would look for something named &apply, but what my \apply gives you is called just "apply"	11:36
	any reason you don't just have "sub apply(...) {...}"?	11:37
Ulti	whoa big speed improvement suddenly, like 10%	11:40
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sarna	timotimo: it's a hashmap, mapping strings to functions	11:51
timotimo	then you probably won't need the .	11:52
	like, if your code looks like %functions{$funcname}(1, 2, 3) there doesn't have to be a .	11:52
sarna	oh, good to know :)	11:53
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sarna	is there something like `is-int` but for lists?	11:57
El_Che	whut	11:58
sarna	something like is-list	11:58
El_Che	to know is something is a list?	11:58
sarna	precisely	11:58
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sarna	I know I can .WHAT but how to compare it to anything?	11:59
El_Che	smartmatching?	12:00
sena_kun	m: say 3.WHAT =:= Int;	12:00
camelia	rakudo-moar 587cd4f9e: OUTPUT: «True␤»	12:00
moritz	m: say 3.WHAT === Int	12:00
camelia	rakudo-moar 587cd4f9e: OUTPUT: «True␤»	12:00
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raschipi	m: say 3 ~~ Int	12:01
camelia	rakudo-moar 587cd4f9e: OUTPUT: «True␤»	12:01
moritz	m: my @a = (1, 2, 3); say so all(@a) ~~ Int	12:01
camelia	rakudo-moar 587cd4f9e: OUTPUT: «True␤»	12:01
moritz	m: my @a = (1, 2, 'x'); say so all(@a) ~~ Int	12:01
camelia	rakudo-moar 587cd4f9e: OUTPUT: «False␤»	12:01
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raschipi	m: my $y = 3 but False; say $y.WHAT =:= Int; say $y.WHAT === Int;	12:03
camelia	rakudo-moar 587cd4f9e: OUTPUT: «False␤False␤»	12:03
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sarna	sorry, my internet borked :(	12:03
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raschipi	sena_kun: ↑ === and =:= are too strict.	12:04
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sena_kun	raschipi, thanks, will keep it in mind. Should admit that I've never encountered usage of `but Foo` trick in the wild nor do understand why anyone would have to use it despite being involved in writing of some black-magic-like code. :)	12:07
	m: my $a = 3 but False; say $a ~~ Int;	12:08
camelia	rakudo-moar 587cd4f9e: OUTPUT: «True␤»	12:08
sena_kun	Nice.	12:09
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raschipi	It's used to send in-band extra data, expecially for DBMs.	12:10
Zoffix	AlexDaniel benjikun jmerelo are survey results public already or when is it over? I know you shared a URL, but I wanna tweet the results and it's bad science to publish survey results before it's finished.	12:11
El_Che	Zoffix: publishing raw data is weird	12:11
rindolf	Zoffix: hi	12:13
Zoffix	Right, it needs to be accompanied with prose explaining the results in a way that supports your agenda :P	12:13
El_Che	Zoffix: that's how the cookie crumbles :)	12:13
sarna	do we have a head propagandist?	12:13
rindolf	Zoffix: if rakudobrew sucks so much, then there should be a usable alternative for it	12:13
raschipi	sarna: Zoffix works in marketing.	12:14
sarna	raschipi: oh :^)	12:14
El_Che	rindolf: ./Configure.pl --prefix=foo && make && make test && make install	12:14
Zoffix	rindolf: there is. The bash alias I gave you. It creates a single command instead of rakudobrew's two. If you don't like it, you can give https://rakudup.github.io/ a spin or tyil's thing whose name I forget	12:14
tyil	Zoffix: LoneStar	12:15
	:>	12:15
Zoffix	What's the link?	12:15
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tyil	https://gitlab.com/tyil/lonestar	12:15
	its also on github if you prefer that	12:16
	→ psychoslave joined	12:16
tyil	it's also in the AUR and in my gentoo overlay	12:16
El_Che	I created packages as an alternative to local compiling. I am not fond of running bash scripts from the internet either	12:16
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tyil	I oftentimes use the docker images as well	12:16
	for testing purposes	12:16
El_Che	I never use docker images I didn't create myself, besides official OS base images	12:17
tyil	I'm using the rakudo-star image with gitlab-ci	12:17
	saves me all the effort of setting up perl 6 manually in images all the time	12:17
Zoffix	huggable: build :is: Alternatives to rakudobrew: 3rd party installers: https://gitlab.com/tyil/lonestar#readme and https://rakudup.github.io/ \| 3rd party distro packages: https://rakudo.org/files/rakudo/third-party \| Bash alias: https://github.com/zoffixznet/r#table-of-contents	12:17
huggable	Zoffix, Added build as Alternatives to rakudobrew: 3rd party installers: https://gitlab.com/tyil/lonestar#readme and https://rakudup.github.io/ \| 3rd party distro packages: https://rakudo.org/files/rakudo/third-party \| Bash alias: https://github.com/zoffixznet/r#table-of-contents	12:17
thundergnat	sena_kun: using but to apply a role comes in handy sometimes: See http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Hilbert_curve#Perl_6 for example.	12:17
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tyil	anyway, lunchtime~	12:17
Zoffix	sarna: I think lizmat++ is our head propagandist, being at the helm of The Perl 6 Weekly as well as at the Perl table of many confs.	12:18
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lizmat	the Perl table is done by Wendy, and as such if we would need to call anybody "head propagandist", it would be her, I think	12:20
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lizmat	but don't tell her that :-)	12:20
mikejw	if I want to pass a binary file as string to https://github.com/bduggan/aws-s3-perl6 do I need to open and slurp the conents with raw/bin encoding?	12:20
sarna	if you told her she'd point at another person :^)	12:20
mikejw	*contents	12:20
jkramer	I was looking at the tasks at rosettacode that don't have a p6 implementation yet and started working on this one: http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Checkpoint_synchronization	12:21
	Do you think this is an adequate solution or is there anything to be improved? https://gist.github.com/jkramer/7e04b7c93ac905f179b9d33651e70de6	12:21
Zoffix	mikejw: doing that would pass it as a Blob. I think you want `"file".IO.slurp: :enc<latin1>` or `:enc<utf8-c8>`. The latter tries to decode it as utf8 and keeps any invalid bytes as is, the former just keeps all the bytes as is	12:22
lizmat	await (1..$total-workers).map: -> $id { and lose the my $id = $_ ?	12:22
	jkramer: ^^	12:22
El_Che	lizmat: I think Zoffix, Wendy and you all cover different parts of the propaganda	12:22
rindolf	tyil: must lonestar be installed under /usr ?	12:23
mikejw	ah cool, thanks :)	12:23
Zoffix	jkramer: FWIW there's Supply.throttle that does all the throttling for you	12:24
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Zoffix	m: my $workers = 4; my $units-to-build = 42; await ^$units-to-build .Supply.throttle: $workers, { say "Doing work on $^u"; sleep 3.rand; say "$^u is done" }	12:26
camelia	rakudo-moar 587cd4f9e: OUTPUT: «Doing work on 0␤Doing work on 1␤Doing work on 2␤Doing work on 3␤3 is done␤Doing work on 4␤1 is done␤Doing work on 5␤2 is done␤Doing work on 6␤6 is done␤Doing work on 7␤4 is done␤Doing work on 8␤0 is done␤Doing work on 9…»	12:26
AlexDaniel	.seen benjikun	12:27
yoleaux	I saw benjikun 08:05Z in #perl6: <benjikun> np :)	12:27
raschipi	Perl 6 marketing is a hot potato	12:27
Zoffix	m: my $workers = 4; my $units-to-build = 12; react whenever ^$units-to-build .Supply.throttle: $workers, { say "Doing work on $^u"; sleep my \ans := 3.rand; [$u, ans] } { say .result.head ~ " is done. Result is " ~ .result.tail }	12:27
camelia	rakudo-moar 587cd4f9e: OUTPUT: «Doing work on 0␤Doing work on 1␤Doing work on 2␤Doing work on 3␤2 is done. Result is 0.08417798391732845␤Doing work on 4␤4 is done. Result is 0.35950064073938093␤Doing work on 5␤0 is done. Result is 0.5759448195478509␤Doing work on 6…»	12:27
AlexDaniel	Zoffix: yeah, but I think it's not over yet	12:28
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AlexDaniel	(re survey)	12:28
	ah, it says that it is over…	12:29
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Zoffix	jkramer: ok, nm, I just now read that wiki that describes the problem	12:29
	And another suggestion for the survey is a friendlier URL :)	12:30
	Not only I don't remember what it was, even if I saw it right now, I wouldn't know if it's the same or not.	12:30
	perl6.org/survey/2018.06 now that's a URL and you can publish the results right at the same URL once it's over	12:30
jkramer	lizmat: Ah yeah, don't know why I did it that way :)	12:32
rindolf	Zoffix: please add a licence to https://github.com/zoffixznet/rd#linux	12:33
Zoffix	meh	12:34
jkramer	Zoffix: That's pretty cool but I think it's not what they want there :)	12:34
Zoffix	jkramer: yeah, it isn't :)	12:34
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rindolf	Zoffix: i cannot find anything better than rakudobrew and i looked at all three alternatives	12:36
Zoffix	rindolf: which feature of rakudobrew are those alternatives missing?	12:38
rindolf	Zoffix: well, lonestar has to be installed under /usr	12:38
mikejw	Zoffix: now things seem to freeze when I try and access the slurped contents	12:39
	btw it's a zip file	12:39
Zoffix	mikejw: is it a super huge file?	12:39
mikejw	23megs I think	12:39
rindolf	Zoffix: and rakudoup requires an ugly curl \| bash command	12:40
	Zoffix: and your alias clutters the home dir	12:40
Zoffix	rindolf: but... rakudobrew does the same. It installs into .rakudobrew, my alias installs into .rakudo	12:41
rindolf	Zoffix: it also has ~/rakudo	12:41
Zoffix	rindolf: and rakudobrew is an ugly command that you clone from git rather than curl\|bash command	12:41
tyil	tbh, all solutions are ugly	12:41
Zoffix	rindolf: that's what I meant. You can change it to any dir you want. Just adjust the path	12:41
tyil	the only good solution would be inclusion in the distro repos	12:41
	all we're doing now are workarounds	12:42
	none of them are particularly "nice"	12:42
rindolf	Zoffix: ok, fine	12:42
tyil	also rindolf, if I didnt break it yet, lonestar doesn't need to be installed at all	12:43
rindolf	tyil: ok	12:43
tyil	just clone and ./bin/lonestar, it will intall in ~/.rakudo-star by default	12:43
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Zoffix	mikejw: well, I've just killed my box by trying to .slurp.say a 23MB sparse file :P	12:48
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rindolf	tyil: thanks	12:49
tyil	no probs :>	12:50
rindolf	Zoffix: heh	12:50
Zoffix	Oh, it's 23GB... I guess `dd`'s seek takes kilobytes not bytes...	12:51
rindolf	Zoffix: ah	12:51
Zoffix	oh, "seek=N skip N obs-sized blocks at start of output"	12:52
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timotimo	:D :D	12:52
Zoffix	and default obs is 512	12:52
timotimo	yeah, 23 gig may not fit into the ram with rakudo's overhead	12:53
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Zoffix	Challenge accepted!! :)	12:53
timotimo	i don't have enough ram to get that to fit %)	12:53
	if it's all zeroes, zram might help here	12:53
Zoffix	Well, I'm too lazy for it, but I think GCE has a VM with half a terrabyte	12:53
timotimo	having loads and loads of objects on the heap in moarvm is problematic because the GC walks all of them, but if you read a gigantic file into memory, you just have a buffer that won't get walked through regularly	12:55
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jnthn	The GC only walks all of them in a full collection :)	13:00
Zoffix	mikejw: what version of perl6 do you have?	13:00
	$ perl6 -e '$*SPEC.devnull.&open(:w).spurt: "z.zip".IO.slurp: :enc<latin1>; say "z.zip".IO.s/1024/1024, " ", now - ENTER now'	13:01
	26.0959663 1.5011168	13:01
	← Khisanth left	13:01
Zoffix	mikejw: ^ that's on 2018.03. 26MB zip file takes 1.5s. And printing to STDOUT takes ~5s	13:01
	On 2018.05-54-g148d7c5 on a different box takes ~1.6s	13:01
	(to /dev/null)	13:02
	And utf8-c8 to devnull takes ~7.6s	13:02
	So I wonder if maybe your perl6 is super ancient that it appears to freeze up on this operation	13:03
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rindolf	tyil: with lonestar, the perl6 bench looks better	13:13
	only 87 secs	13:13
tyil	it shouldnt differ from any other form of self compiled installation	13:14
	tyil shrugs	13:14
tyil	I'm glad it works for you though :p	13:14
rindolf	tyil: i had an old one	13:14
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Zoffix	rindolf: what's your perl6 -v?	13:16
mikejw	Zoffix: "This is Rakudo version 2018.04 built on MoarVM version 2018.04"	13:17
Zoffix	mikejw: hm, no idea then :/	13:17
mikejw	no worries	13:17
Zoffix	rindolf: because lonestar installs latest Star, which would be 2018.04, so it's surprising it's faster (unless your earlier install was even older than that).	13:18
rindolf	Zoffix: This is Rakudo Star version 2018.04.1 built on MoarVM version 2018.04.1	13:18
	Zoffix: it may have been	13:18
Zoffix	hm, OK.	13:18
rindolf	Zoffix: bye . walk	13:19
	← rindolf left	13:19
Zoffix	c: 2018.04.1 https://temp.perl6.party/z.txt	13:20
committable6	Zoffix, Successfully fetched the code from the provided URL	13:20
	Zoffix, ¦2018.04.1: «1.1276149␤»	13:20
Zoffix	c: HEAD https://temp.perl6.party/z.txt	13:20
committable6	Zoffix, Successfully fetched the code from the provided URL	13:20
	Zoffix, ¦HEAD(ea16138): «0.80886579␤»	13:20
Zoffix	:)	13:20
mikejw	it seems like I need to use enc:<latin1> on the open function and on slurp other wise I get a "Malformed UTF-8" error	13:21
Zoffix	mikejw: oh yeah, sorry. If you're using a file handle instead of IO::Path, the :enc goes into open modes, not into .slurp	13:21
	m: say 1.1276149/0.80886579	13:22
camelia	rakudo-moar ea161384d: OUTPUT: «1.394069219␤»	13:22
Zoffix	.tell rindolf looks like when the next Star comes out in about a month, you should see another ~39% speed boost: http://colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_log/perl6?date=2018-06-29#l607	13:22
yoleaux	Zoffix: I'll pass your message to rindolf.	13:22
mikejw	ok makes sense. still getting the hanging.. probably something I'm not doing right with promises again	13:23
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mikejw	ok it's because I was trying to output the file contents through Data::Dump. probably not a great idea :D	13:36
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mikejw	I guess this aws library isn't built for handling large-ish file because I think it must be doing something simliar. get the same max cpu hang when trying to pass it the file for uplading	13:44
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mikejw	similar uploading	13:44
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SmokeMachine	m: say set() =:= set(); say set(1) =:= set(1)	13:58
camelia	rakudo-moar 5a4c95e7b: OUTPUT: «True␤False␤»	13:58
SmokeMachine	if `set()` always return the same object, wouldnt make sense that `set()` passing immutable values to return the same object too?	14:00
raschipi	SmokeMachine: Yes it does.	14:00
	m: say "1" =:= "1"	14:01
camelia	rakudo-moar 5a4c95e7b: OUTPUT: «True␤»	14:01
raschipi	Same as the above.	14:01
jnthn	It'd be a possible constant folding opt, yes	14:01
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raschipi	m: say 1 =:= 1	14:02
camelia	rakudo-moar 5a4c95e7b: OUTPUT: «True␤»	14:02
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SmokeMachine	how could it be done? making a cache of immutable objects?	14:04
raschipi	It's caller 'interning'.	14:05
	called*	14:05
jnthn	SmokeMachine: It's a compiler optimization. We already do it for 1 + 1 for examle.	14:06
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jnthn	We shouldn't do such a thing at runtime, the memory use can get really out of hand :)	14:06
raschipi	m: say 1 + 1 =:= 2	14:06
camelia	rakudo-moar 5a4c95e7b: OUTPUT: «True␤»	14:06
SmokeMachine	jnthn: should it be done on https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/master/src/Perl6/Optimizer.nqp ?	14:07
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jnthn	SmokeMachine: Yes, though in theory marking `set` with `is PURE` in CORE.setting would opt it in to constant folding	14:08
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SmokeMachine	jnthn: make it `PURE` wouldnt make it return the same object even with mutable parameters? or `PURE` looks for the `.WHERE`?	14:13
	jnthn: sorry, even if it looks for the `.WHERE`...	14:13
timotimo	pure really just signals to the optimizer that it can evaluate it at compile time and replace the call with the result	14:14
	all it cares about is that the values you call it with are compile-time-known or not	14:14
jnthn	SmokeMachine: It will only apply if all the arguments to it are fixed at compile time	14:14
	ah, timotimo beat me to it :)	14:14
SmokeMachine	:)	14:15
lizmat	fwiw: multi sub set() { BEGIN nqp::create(Set) }	14:15
	so the way I see it, set() is already interned by being a WVal ?	14:16
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jnthn	lizmat: Yes, but we're talking about set(1,2,3)	14:16
SmokeMachine	it should be true to `set()`, `bag()` and `mix()` right?	14:16
lizmat	ah, that!	14:16
	will add "is pure" and see if that makes a difference for static sets	14:17
Zoffix	SmokeMachine: are you gonna be working on static optimizing those subs?	14:17
lizmat	m: dd Set.new	14:17
camelia	rakudo-moar 84f60adad: OUTPUT: «().Set␤»	14:17
SmokeMachine	Id like to try...	14:17
lizmat	m: dd ().Set	14:17
camelia	rakudo-moar 84f60adad: OUTPUT: «set()␤»	14:17
lizmat	working on fixing that ^^^	14:17
Zoffix	lizmat: `is pure` has to be on the proto for it to take effect and I guess the candidates that take args aren't pure?	14:17
SmokeMachine	Zoffix: Ill try it at night...	14:18
lizmat	doesn't "is pure" means to always create the same .WHICH for a given set of parameters ?	14:18
timotimo	not necessarily	14:18
jnthn	I thought it really meant "you can constant fold this", e.g. if the arguments are themselves constant or the result of a constant folding	14:19
lizmat	yeah, so in that sense set() bag() and mix() can be marked "is pure"	14:20
Zoffix	SmokeMachine: OK :) I started something, but it's not that good. Here's the diff if there's anything you want to salvage: https://gist.github.com/zoffixznet/f5db2e3a7f197ce556faa630fb5bd680 As jnthn++ said, we can actually try to constant-fold even versions with the args and that's done for other stuff in this branch, so you'll be trying to use some of that code or stick the conditional for sets into that	14:21
	branch: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/master/src/Perl6/Optimizer.nqp#L1589-L1694	14:21
	Ah	14:21
	SmokeMachine: ok, nm, looks like we can just mark those subs as pure :D	14:21
raschipi	Am I the only one that likes the indirect invocation syntax?	14:22
Zoffix	I like it, but it sucks for nesting	14:22
	Would be nice to write: say perl Foo.new: <a b c> :	14:22
	or say perl Foo.new: <a b c> : : to also call `.say` instead of `&say`	14:22
hobbs	it should mean that the result is only dependent on the parameters and nothing else. It doesn't have to memoize or anything like that, but it wouldn't be wrong for it to :)	14:22
Zoffix	Ah right, that's indeed what it means :)	14:23
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Zoffix	wonder if there's more that can be marked	14:24
SmokeMachine	Zoffix: Yes... the `PURE` will make it easier...	14:24
	Zoffix is reminded of R#1566	14:25
synopsebot	R#1566 [open] : https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/issues/1566 [regression] multi built-ins are not assignable to Callable	14:25
Zoffix	jnthn: reminder that you wanted to see if a good solution exists for https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/issues/1566 :)	14:26
SmokeMachine	Zoffix: but if you want to finish it, thats ok... I can try to study something else... (I was thinking of trying making the return type check compile time)	14:26
Zoffix	(something that's less hackish than https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/issues/1566#issuecomment-370995418 )	14:26
	SmokeMachine: nah, you finish it :)	14:26
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jnthn	Zoffix: ah, thanks, maybe next week when I'm feeling for brainy :)	14:29
Zoffix	:)	14:29
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jnthn	*more :)	14:32
	heh, can't even type	14:32
timotimo	cool, they let you pick up your fixed brain on the weekend? ;)	14:33
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Zoffix	SmokeMachine: to clarify: ignore my diff. It's wrong. You can just apply `is pure` trait on the set/bag/mix ops	14:36
hobbs	Zoffix: or any other kind of eliminating multiple evaluation, so an optimizer could decide to hoist a pure call out of a loop or do CSE or that kind of fanciness :)	14:37
	(to continue previous thought)	14:37
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Altreus	wha gwannin with bailador? It's not been updated for 2 months :s	14:38
Zoffix	:)	14:38
Altreus	does it work	14:38
Zoffix	Altreus: probably. I guess Cro stole its thunder in some way.	14:38
El_Che	Zoffix: I don't think it's true	14:38
	Zoffix: it didn't look too active before Cro appeared	14:39
Zoffix	What happened to the Bailador book BTW?	14:39
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	turdmonkey → Bowlslaw	14:40
Bowlslaw	Helllooo	14:40
Altreus	Cro is it	14:40
SmokeMachine	Zoffix: ok, thanks!	14:40
	Altreus loosk	14:40
hobbs	shot down by Enrique Iglesias's legal team	14:40
Zoffix	Altreus: it got a website: http://mi.cro.services	14:41
Altreus	lols	14:41
	found it already :)	14:41
Zoffix	:)	14:41
	Then I have a second question: what happened to people who kicked money for Bailador book? Is that money lost?	14:42
	m: { for ^700_000 { my $ = set(1, 2, 3, 4) }; say now - ENTER now }	14:43
camelia	rakudo-moar 84f60adad: OUTPUT: «5.07368704␤»	14:43
Zoffix	m: BEGIN &set.^mixin: role { method is-pure { True } }; { for ^700_000 { my $ = set(1, 2, 3, 4) }; say now - ENTER now }	14:43
camelia	rakudo-moar 84f60adad: OUTPUT: «0.057662␤»	14:43
Zoffix	is-pure is OP :P	14:43
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Zoffix	Filed R#1992	14:52
synopsebot	R#1992 [open] : https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/issues/1992 [perf] Examine codebase for subs that can be `is pure`d	14:52
Zoffix	m: say .?is-pure for &list, &hash, &slip, &so, &substr	14:52
camelia	rakudo-moar 84f60adad: OUTPUT: «Nil␤Nil␤Nil␤Nil␤Nil␤»	14:52
Zoffix	'cause all this stuff can be pure, eh?	14:52
lizmat	Zoffix: am testing set/bag/mix atm	14:52
timotimo	i have a cautionary tale for you	14:53
	we made x "is pure" at some point, and that caused performance to drastically worsen for very long resulting strings	14:53
Zoffix	lizmat: ok, let SmokeMachine know :) I think they were working on that too	14:53
	timotimo: because it flattened the ropes?	14:54
timotimo	because the object it was creating had been serialized before the execution started, so we ende up turning the string that was "this short thing repeated 1000 times" in memory (i.e. implemented with a strand) into actually many kilobytes (or megabytes in this case) of string data	14:54
	yes	14:54
lizmat	SmokeMachine: are you still looking at adding "is pure" to set/bag/max ?	14:54
timotimo	so make sure handling the constant object isn't more costly than evaluating it on the spot	14:54
SmokeMachine	I was planning to do that at night...	14:55
	lizmat: ^^	14:55
lizmat	ok, I'm about to commit that change myself	14:55
SmokeMachine	lizmat: ok!	14:55
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lizmat	it makes set(1,2,3) 65x faster if you do it 100000 times	14:57
Zoffix	nice :)	14:57
timotimo	it'll be even more faster if you do it 10000000000 times :P	14:57
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SmokeMachine	\o/	14:57
timotimo	hm, or maybe not	14:57
Zoffix	Yeah	14:57
lizmat	yeah, from O1 I guess now	14:58
Zoffix	"Changelog: made set() 1000000000000x faster" :)	14:58
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lizmat	.oO( ∞ x faster )	14:59
Zoffix	:)	14:59
Bowlslaw	regarding the web crawler: do you think it is good design to store the links in an array, and then pass the array to a function that processes them?	15:00
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rindolf	i added a new benchmark - https://github.com/shlomif/perl6-benchmarks/commit/87c71ce69953c33bbfe5025c1ef60466fe33f5f4	15:07
yoleaux	13:22Z <Zoffix> rindolf: looks like when the next Star comes out in about a month, you should see another ~39% speed boost: http://colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_log/perl6?date=2018-06-29#l607	15:07
sena_kun	Bowlslaw, my only tip to writing crawlers is to keep sure you have a fixed-size(or at least sane number of) batch of workers.	15:08
Bowlslaw	yes	15:08
sena_kun	And never try to parse HTML with regexps. :)	15:09
El_Che	rindolf++	15:10
rindolf	El_Che: thanks	15:10
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Bowlslaw	hm, I just discovered XML::Parser...	15:11
	looks better than DOM::Tiny for this job	15:11
sena_kun	I used Gumbo, maybe somewhat long ago.	15:12
	Not sure if better than XML::Parser though.	15:13
jnthn	fwiw, https://gist.github.com/jnthn/b358ebfb6ea6c366834896b9f62ba92b is my total hack of a crawler, and yes, it does both things sena_kun mentioned wrong :)	15:15
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sena_kun	: )	15:16
jnthn	It does, however, do concurrent requsets right, and URL concat right, and is a nice example of using a react block to keep an async operation alive so long as there is work to be done. :)	15:16
El_Che	jnthn: never meet your heroes, they say ;)	15:16
Bowlslaw	Cro ?	15:16
El_Che	Bowlslaw: you pronounce it by saying it repeatedly and dancing like a chicken	15:17
	Bowlslaw: https://cro.services/	15:17
jnthn	Bowlslaw: Docs at https://cro.services/docs/reference/cro-http-client and https://cro.services/docs/reference/cro-uri for the bits of Cro the example uses	15:18
Bowlslaw	lol	15:18
	cool, thanks	15:18
	i dont' want to copy anyone's crawler though	15:18
El_Che	Something jnthn does when he's not hacking on rakudo or on comma :)	15:18
jnthn	El_Che: I thought that was MoarVM :P	15:18
El_Che	jnthn: let's keep the internals contained	15:19
	:)	15:19
jnthn	Bowlslaw: Sure, wasn't giving you it to copy so much as to point out its overall design, which may be interesting :)	15:19
Bowlslaw	I just got banned from r/perl on reddit because a politically motivated mod hates me...	15:20
	perhaps here isn't the right place to state that. i'll deal with it	15:20
	anyway, thanks jnthn	15:20
rindolf	.tell Zoffix thanks! Note that https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/7vfvct/90_faster_usually_doesnt_mean_what_you_think_it/	15:20
yoleaux	rindolf: I'll pass your message to Zoffix.	15:20
jnthn	I guess if Cro::HTTP::Client had a "maximum outstanding requests allowed per client" option then my example would do throttling with a tiny change. :)	15:21
AlexDaniel	rindolf: this actually bothered me a lot :)	15:22
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jnthn	The regex would still be a bit naughty though :)	15:23
AlexDaniel	rindolf: so TL;DR newspeed ÷ oldspeed and “5.5x as fast”, right?	15:26
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Bowlslaw	yess	15:27
	jnthn: i've been having trouble with concurrency	15:28
	that really helps clarify it	15:28
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rindolf	AlexDaniel: yes	15:30
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diakopter	has anyone tried compiling MoarVM to wasm?	15:35
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Geth	¦ doc: db0f520a2d \| (JJ Merelo)++ \| doc/Language/objects.pod6	15:43
	¦ doc: Changes slightly the object invocation example	15:43
	¦ doc:	15:43
	¦ doc: To introduce in a natural way the indirect invocant syntax, closing #2131.	15:43
	¦ doc:	15:43
synopsebot	Link: https://doc.perl6.org/language/objects	15:43
Geth	¦ doc: As usual, please reopen and/or edit subject if it is not addressed	15:43
	¦ doc: satisfactorily.	15:43
	¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/db0f520a2d	15:43
jmerelo	diakopter: no one, AFAIK, but it would be cool if someone tried...	15:44
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Zoffix	rindolf: err.... yes, 90% faster means different than .9x faster, but 3.9x faster means 390% faster	15:50
yoleaux	15:20Z <rindolf> Zoffix: thanks! Note that https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/7vfvct/90_faster_usually_doesnt_mean_what_you_think_it/	15:50
Zoffix	AlexDaniel: the times in "2 times faster" refers to multiplication operator, also called "times". Thus, it's 200% faster, i.e. the ratio is 2:1, not 3:1	15:51
jkramer	Zoffix: Isn't "2 times faster" = "the original speed plus 2 times the original speed"?	15:52
	For 200% of the original speed I'd say "twice as fast"	15:52
moritz	natural language sucks, let's just all speak Perl 6, ja?	15:52
AlexDaniel	moritz: True	15:52
Zoffix	No, 2 times faster means 2 x original speed	15:52
rindolf	Zoffix: actually 2:1 is 100% faster	15:52
Zoffix	Where are you getting the "plus" there?	15:52
	rindolf: right, but it's also 2x faster	15:53
rindolf	Zoffix: yes	15:53
AlexDaniel	faster	15:53
jkramer	The fastER is a plus for me. :)	15:53
Zoffix	rindolf: so then why did you "note that" to me? My commit message read 3.9x faster, didn' tit?	15:53
jkramer	Something is X something'ER than Y than it's Y + X	15:54
Zoffix	https://xkcd.com/309/	15:54
	rindolf: oh, you were talking about the 39%, not the commit message. Never mind	15:55
rindolf	Zoffix: <Zoffix> rindolf: looks like when the next Star comes out in about a month, you should see another ~39% speed boost: http://colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_log/perl6?date=2018-06-29#l607	15:55
	Zoffix: yes	15:55
jmerelo	What was the bot that said when some new feature was working? I need it for this https://github.com/perl6/doc/issues/2132	15:56
Zoffix	jmerelo: bisect:	15:56
	rindolf: what does 39% speed boost mean?	15:56
AlexDaniel	jmerelo: actually try 6c: … first	15:57
Zoffix	rindolf: to me it means original speed + 39% of original speed; is that what old-time / new-time give?	15:57
	m: 1.1276149/0.80886579	15:57
camelia	rakudo-moar c37c3b596: OUTPUT: «WARNINGS for <tmp>:␤Useless use of "/" in expression "1.1276149/0.80886579" in sink context (line 1)␤»	15:57
Zoffix	m: say 1.1276149/0.80886579	15:57
camelia	rakudo-moar c37c3b596: OUTPUT: «1.394069219␤»	15:57
jmerelo	6c: use NativeCall; my $number_of_ints = 10; my $ints = CArray[int32].allocate($number_of_ints);	15:57
committable6	jmerelo, https://gist.github.com/31d1e3b6933e9fd9bbd9b09c0a5baa38	15:58
Zoffix	Like, I'd describe it as 39% faster.	15:58
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Zoffix	m: say 1.1276149/0.080886579	15:58
camelia	rakudo-moar c37c3b596: OUTPUT: «13.940692188␤»	15:58
Zoffix	I'd describe that as 13.9x faster...	15:58
	Is that right?	15:58
AlexDaniel	Zoffix: 13.9x as fast	15:59
rindolf	Zoffix: https://github.com/shlomif/shlomif-computer-settings/blob/master/shlomif-settings/home-bin-executables/bin/improvement-percent	16:00
Zoffix	AlexDaniel: for both?	16:00
AlexDaniel	Zoffix: 1.39x as fast, 13.9x as fast	16:01
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Zoffix	AlexDaniel: how would you write "twice faster" in ${n}x notation?	16:02
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AlexDaniel	Zoffix: 3x as fast, I think? Depending on what you mean by twice faster	16:03
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Zoffix	AlexDaniel: "two times faster"	16:03
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Zoffix	how do you get 3x—which is pronounced as "three times"—from "two times"?	16:04
	rindolf: I don't understand what that is or how to run it	16:06
	rindolf: that formula is for the time, while the "faster" is the speed.	16:06
hobbs	Zoffix: 50% faster is 1.5 times as fast. 2 times faster is 3 times as fast.	16:06
AlexDaniel	well, if there's no speedup or slowdown, it's 0 times faster, right? And that's also 1x as fast?	16:06
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rindolf	Zoffix: yes	16:07
Zoffix	OK, I get it now	16:07
AlexDaniel	Zoffix: but generally, the point I personally want to make is that our changelog and commit messages are confusing. It's not so much about who's right and who's wrong, but that the numbers are somewhat meaningless and inconsistent	16:08
jmerelo	Geth: status	16:08
AlexDaniel	releasable6: status	16:08
releasable6	AlexDaniel, Next release in ≈22 days and ≈2 hours. 1 blocker. 0 out of 41 commits logged	16:08
	AlexDaniel, Details: https://gist.github.com/713c521c146db66bdb48c4b1fec2a9a5	16:08
rindolf	Zoffix: shlomif@telaviv1:~$ improvement-percent from 1.1276149 to 0.8088657939.4069218825536%	16:08
Zoffix	AlexDaniel: make a bot that takes old run time and new run time and gives the right wording for speed	16:09
rindolf	Zoffix: shlomif@telaviv1:~$ improvement-percent from 1.1276149 to 0.80886579 => 39.4069218825536%	16:09
AlexDaniel	Zoffix: alright	16:09
	AlexDaniel does that	16:09
Zoffix	\o/	16:09
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AlexDaniel	I was about to suggest creating a tool, but got ninja'd	16:09
Geth	¦ doc: bfd3f57503 \| (JJ Merelo)++ \| doc/Language/nativecall.pod6	16:09
	¦ doc: Clarifies when allocate was introduced closes #2132	16:09
	¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/bfd3f57503	16:09
	eaterof → eater	16:09
synopsebot	Link: https://doc.perl6.org/language/nativecall	16:09
Zoffix	AlexDaniel: hm, maybe a tool would be better even? Somewhere in rakudo's tools/ ?	16:10
	That way one can run it without being on IRC when making a commit	16:10
AlexDaniel	let's start with that, yeah	16:10
	can wrap a bot around it later	16:10
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Zoffix	I think it's a language barrier thing :) both "twice faster" and "twice as fast" translate the same in Russian :)	16:12
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Zoffix	... and in French.	16:13
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Zoffix	Makes me think I'm being trolled :P	16:14
lizmat	Zoffix: as in Dutch, fwiw	16:14
jmerelo	Zoffix: dvi davai	16:14
moritz	both exist in German	16:15
lizmat	moritz: but with the same meaning, or different meaning?	16:15
moritz	"doppelt so schnell" == twice as fast, "zweimal schneller" == "two times faster"	16:17
hobbs	Zoffix: for what it's worth, I generally try to use "<decimal> times as fast", without using percent, and without using "x times faster", to be as clear as possible.	16:17
moritz	with the same possible interpretations and ambiguities as in English	16:17
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hobbs	but for a small change I'll still probably say a 10% speedup or whatever	16:17
	to mean 1.1x as fast	16:17
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AlexDaniel	what's up with freenode again…	16:18
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hobbs	le network is le split	16:18
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Zoffix	hobbs: and do you compute the number as `old-time / new-time` ?	16:19
AlexDaniel	alright, don't worry everyone, I have the tool coming… :)	16:21
SmokeMachine	m: say set(1) =:= set(1)	16:21
camelia	rakudo-moar c37c3b596: OUTPUT: «False␤»	16:21
Zoffix	:)	16:21
hobbs	Zoffix: yes, that works	16:21
Zoffix	SmokeMachine: that now constant-folds, but the object would still be different (unless it's set(), without args). Basically it now calls that routine at compile time instead of runtime	16:22
	And it's the same object for set() because there's a special candidate for it that makes one object at begin time	16:22
timotimo	don't we still clone the object on the way out?	16:22
Zoffix	m: dd set() =:= set()	16:23
camelia	rakudo-moar c37c3b596: OUTPUT: «Bool::True␤»	16:23
Zoffix	nope	16:23
timotimo	oh, also, every call to set() will be compile-time-evaluated separately, there is no cache or something	16:23
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timotimo	so set(1) =:= set(1) won't be true	16:23
Zoffix	right	16:23
	m: multi foo { BEGIN rand }; multi foo(\|) { rand }; [foo(), foo(), foo(), foo(42), foo(42), foo(42)]	16:24
camelia	rakudo-moar c37c3b596: ( no output )	16:24
Zoffix	m: multi foo { BEGIN rand }; multi foo(\|) { rand }; say [foo(), foo(), foo(), foo(42), foo(42), foo(42)]	16:24
camelia	rakudo-moar c37c3b596: OUTPUT: «[0.4724516930069058 0.4724516930069058 0.4724516930069058 0.4151627299452856 0.9904360721265346 0.4774319163671893]␤»	16:24
buggable	New CPAN upload: Amazon-DynamoDB-0.1.tar.gz by HANENKAMP http://modules.perl6.org/dist/Amazon::DynamoDB:cpan:HANENKAMP	16:24
SmokeMachine	yes, but its only called once and the original calls are changed to the response of that single call (isnt it what constant fold means?) so, it shoud "return" the same object every time, shouldnt?	16:24
Zoffix	m: multi foo { BEGIN rand }; multi foo(\|) { rand }; say [(BEGIN foo), (BEGIN foo), (BEGIN foo), (BEGIN foo 42), (BEGIN foo 42), (BEGIN foo 42)]	16:25
camelia	rakudo-moar c37c3b596: OUTPUT: «[0.6006040438087445 0.6006040438087445 0.6006040438087445 0.21298813403474615 0.8253930471542793 0.7956978070765766]␤»	16:25
hobbs	speed is 1/time, so if the time multiplier is new-time/old-time, the speed multiplier is new-time/old-time :)	16:26
	argh	16:26
	speed is 1/time, so if the time multiplier is new-time/old-time, the speed multiplier is old-time/new-time :)	16:26
Zoffix	SmokeMachine: ^ this is what's it like now. The `is pure` thing just added those `BEGIN`s in `(BEGIN foo)`. But if you look at the candidates, only the argless one has another BEGIN, which makes that candidate always return the same thing, while the other candidates return a new one	16:26
hobbs	ignore the screwup	16:26
SmokeMachine	m: sub foo is pure {rand}; say foo, foo, foo	16:26
camelia	rakudo-moar c37c3b596: OUTPUT: «0.55048195659059060.37231769571267890.8481266995271738␤»	16:26
AlexDaniel	hobbs: right	16:27
SmokeMachine	m: sub foo is pure {say "here"; 42}; say foo, foo, foo	16:27
camelia	rakudo-moar c37c3b596: OUTPUT: «here␤here␤here␤424242␤»	16:27
Zoffix	m: sub foo is pure {say "here"; 42}; for ^3 { say foo }	16:28
camelia	rakudo-moar c37c3b596: OUTPUT: «here␤42␤42␤42␤»	16:28
Zoffix	m: sub foo {say "here"; 42}; for ^3 { say foo }	16:28
camelia	rakudo-moar c37c3b596: OUTPUT: «here␤42␤here␤42␤here␤42␤»	16:28
Zoffix	SmokeMachine: ^ that's what `is pure` did. It called it once at compile time and the returned value was then used 3 times at runtime. Without pure, at runtime you're genning the value each time	16:28
Bowlslaw	ok, Cro is really cool	16:29
Zoffix	m: sub foo is pure {BEGIN say "here"; 42}; say foo, foo, foo	16:29
camelia	rakudo-moar c37c3b596: OUTPUT: «here␤424242␤»	16:29
Zoffix	SmokeMachine: ^ and this is what that `BEGIN` in argless `set()` candidate does. So it results in there being just one object for all argless `set()` calls	16:30
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SmokeMachine	m: sub foo is pure {say "here"; 42}; my $last; for ^3 { my $a = foo; say $a =:= $last; $last = $a }	16:30
camelia	rakudo-moar c37c3b596: OUTPUT: «here␤False␤False␤False␤»	16:30
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Zoffix	That's not a good test, because 42 is interned and also `=:=` cares about container, but you're storing it in a different container in your code	16:31
SmokeMachine	m: sub foo is pure {say "here"; 42}; my $last; for ^3 { my $a = foo; say $a<> =:= $last<>; $last = $a }	16:32
camelia	rakudo-moar c37c3b596: OUTPUT: «here␤False␤True␤True␤»	16:32
SmokeMachine	Zoffix: I didnt get it...	16:32
	m: sub foo is pure {say "here"; class :: {}.new}; my $last; for ^3 { my $a = foo; say $a<> =:= $last<>; $last = $a }	16:32
camelia	rakudo-moar c37c3b596: OUTPUT: «here␤False␤True␤True␤»	16:32
SmokeMachine	Zoffix: if it runs only once, it will always "return" the same object... (in my head)	16:34
Zoffix	SmokeMachine: that's why you get `True True` there	16:34
	SmokeMachine: and in there, it is the same object.	16:34
SmokeMachine	m: sub foo(\|) is pure {say "here"; class :: {}.new}; my $last; for ^3 { my $a = foo 1; say $a<> =:= $last<>; $last = $a }	16:35
camelia	rakudo-moar c37c3b596: OUTPUT: «here␤False␤True␤True␤»	16:35
SmokeMachine	Zoffix: yes, but why isnt `set(1)` doing the same?	16:35
Zoffix	SmokeMachine: yes	16:35
SmokeMachine	m: set(1) =:= set(1)	16:36
camelia	rakudo-moar c37c3b596: OUTPUT: «WARNINGS for <tmp>:␤Useless use of "=:=" in expression "set(1) =:= set(1)" in sink context (line 1)␤»	16:36
Zoffix	m: my $last; for ^3 { my $a = set 1; say $a<> =:= $last<>; $last = $a }	16:36
camelia	rakudo-moar c37c3b596: OUTPUT: «False␤True␤True␤»	16:36
SmokeMachine	m: say set(1) =:= set(1)	16:36
camelia	rakudo-moar c37c3b596: OUTPUT: «False␤»	16:36
Zoffix	SmokeMachine: but in `say set(1) =:= set(1)` that's no longer a single call	16:36
	SmokeMachine: there are two calls at compile time	16:36
SmokeMachine	Zoffix: hum! now I got it!!!	16:36
Zoffix	:)	16:36
SmokeMachine	Zoffix: sorry, I think I did missread you earlier	16:37
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Zoffix	SmokeMachine: each time it appears in the sauce, at compile time it gets executed and replaced by the result, so `for ^100 { say foo; say foo }` will call it twice at compile time, replace the calls with results, and at run time with print each one 100 times	16:37
SmokeMachine	woundnt be possible/better to make only once to every call with the same parameters?	16:38
Zoffix	And without `is pure` that would've been "at compile time call nothing, and then at run time call and then print each one 100 times"	16:38
	SmokeMachine: you'd gain speed, but you'd spend a lot of RAM storing all those results from every call	16:38
SmokeMachine	but only at compile time, right?	16:39
timotimo	given that we rely on constant folding to do negative numbers, we'd be keeping every negative number around, for example	16:39
Zoffix	SmokeMachine: no, at runtime too	16:39
SmokeMachine	Zoffix: the constant fold isnt changing the ast?	16:40
	sorry, at ast there are no functions yet... right?	16:40
	Zoffix ran out of brain	16:41
timotimo	yeah, i'd expect the cache to be discarded when compilation is over	16:42
Zoffix	Ah, ok :)	16:42
timotimo	well, at the end of optimization already	16:42
SmokeMachine	I was thinking that once the `is pure` is found it would create a constant with the result of that call and change every call with that parameter to use that constant instead	16:42
timotimo	no, that's not how it's implemented	16:47
Zoffix	SmokeMachine: how do you figure out if a call has the same parameter as another call had?	16:48
SmokeMachine	I mean only if its known at compile time	16:48
timotimo	then you still have the troublesome task of deciding what objects count as "the same"	16:49
Zoffix	SmokeMachine: yeah, but how do you figure out that in `set(1, Foo); set(1, Foo)` both are using the same parameters? I imagine the cost of figuring that out, together with storing the results during optimization stage, might overall end up without a good boost	16:50
	And that it's cheaper to just assume they're different.	16:50
SmokeMachine	Zoffix: that makes sense...	16:50
	but would be faesable it Foo were Immutable too... (but I got it, thanks!)	16:51
Zoffix	SmokeMachine: it is, 'cause it's just a type object, but you're gonna be calling .WHICH or eqaddr or something, which is what Set.new probably does under the hood, so your optimization to figure out if you can save calling Set.new would run in about the same time as actually calling Set.new and you'd still have to call Set.new most of the time, is what I mean it might look like at the end	16:55
	Not that I'm an optimizatinon expert or anything.	16:55
SmokeMachine	Zoffix: that makes sense... thanks!	16:56
Zoffix	Though on the topic of more expensive static optimizations: we could have an extra level optimizations for [installed] modules or something. This way, the scripts don't take ages to compile, but when you can spend some time to squeeze every last bit out of it, you'd set a higher optimization level and optimize a module to the max when installing it.	16:57
	We already have the level controls	16:57
	Like here: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/master/src/Perl6/Optimizer.nqp#L1695-L1698	16:57
	Those ops won't get optimized if you drop the level lower	16:57
hobbs	set the controls for the heart of the sun	16:57
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lizmat	I could imagine an extra level that would look of the .WHICHes of pure objects that got WValled	16:58
	keep those .WHICHes in a hash, and use the one from the hash if there's a match	17:00
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Zoffix	\o/	17:02
p6noob	Hi :-)	17:03
Zoffix	\o	17:04
p6noob	use NativeCall; class B is repr('CStruct') { has uint32 $.b is required } ; B.new(:1b) give error "CStruct representation attribute not yet fully implemented..." but the same thing without "is repr('CStruct')" works just fine.	17:05
	expected behavior maybe?	17:05
	sorry that "use NativeCall" is irrelevant to the example.	17:06
Zoffix	p6noob: I think it's complaining about `is required` flag	17:07
p6noob	yes, it is for sure.. but all that changed was adding repr('CStruct')	17:07
	isn't it okay to still require a field be initialized by the .new caller for a CStruct?	17:08
	(using the implicit .new)	17:08
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Zoffix	p6noob: no idea how the `repr()` stuff does things, but I filed a bug report: R#1993	17:10
synopsebot	R#1993 [open] : https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/issues/1993 Bogus(?) Error when `is required` an attribute of CStruct repr	17:10
p6noob	Thank you Zoffix, I wasn't sure where to file the bug	17:10
Zoffix	p6noob: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/issues is a good place	17:11
	There are some more places listed on https://rakudo.org/bugs but if you're unsure where to go, just file in https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/issues	17:12
Geth	¦ rakudo.org: 200adf0015 \| (Zoffix Znet)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) \| templates/bugs.html.ep	17:14
	¦ rakudo.org: [REAPP] Add our User Experience Repo to list of bug trackers	17:14
	¦ rakudo.org: review: https://github.com/perl6/rakudo.org/commit/200adf0015	17:14
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Bowlslaw	failedis `zed upgrade` safe to run?	17:19
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Bowlslaw	i mean, "zef upgrade"	17:20
AlexDaniel	rindolf, Zoffix, jkramer, moritz, lizmat: can you try https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/e23e2f6808d7967562a8d05441b4fbd3e8779ee0 ?	17:28
	and let me know what you think	17:28
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Tison	in nqp, how can I test if a file exist?	17:41
	emmm, it seems like `try`	17:42
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AlexDaniel	e: use nqp; say nqp::stat('Sakefile', nqp::const::STAT_EXISTS)	17:45
evalable6	AlexDaniel, rakudo-moar 0721bfa75: OUTPUT: «1␤»	17:45
AlexDaniel	e: use nqp; say nqp::stat(onetuhoneuhoanduasoiseoa', nqp::const::STAT_EXISTS)	17:45
evalable6	AlexDaniel, rakudo-moar 0721bfa75: OUTPUT: «(exit code 1) === SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/eZuZcvtqxh␤Unable …»	17:45
	AlexDaniel, Full output: https://gist.github.com/985534a181b8dc37d026b7d5a0456639	17:45
AlexDaniel	e: use nqp; say nqp::stat('onetuhoneuhoanduasoiseoa', nqp::const::STAT_EXISTS)	17:45
evalable6	AlexDaniel, rakudo-moar 0721bfa75: OUTPUT: «0␤»	17:45
AlexDaniel	Tison: maybe this? I don't know really	17:45
Tison	I'm reminded that there is a test file 019-file-ops.t	17:46
	let me take a look at that	17:46
AlexDaniel	Tison: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/e9351cbaa961c4d1e4ef8b4cb52418d55766a8d6/src/core/Rakudo/Internals.pm6#L1244	17:46
Tison	ok( nqp::stat('CREDITS', nqp::const::STAT_EXISTS) == 1, 'nqp::stat exists');	17:46
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Olorig	Hello Perl 6 people. Where can I find documentation about the next version of the language? Perl 6.d I suppose?	18:34
El_Che	Olorig: https://github.com/perl6/6.d-prep/blob/master/TODO/FEATURES.md	18:42
	Olorig: read the remarks in https://github.com/perl6/6.d-prep	18:43
	(the readme)	18:43
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Olorig	Thanks! Looks quite cosmetic	18:50
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Zoffix	missed by that much :P	19:08
	But wanted to say, those are just the TODOs. There's a huge number of features in 6.d, but a lot of them are available now, without the use of `use v6.d.PREVIEW`, because they don't conflict with the 6.c spec and don't have any adverse effects that would make us want to push them to 6.d	19:09
	So when 6.d is released, stuff like Str.uniparse will become officially part of the language.,	19:10
Bowlslaw	cool!	19:12
	I wonder what kinda stuff you guys have...	19:12
	Perl 6 seems absolutely huge already.	19:12
Zoffix	It's all on the map :) https://map.perl6.party/	19:13
	man, there's a bunch of stuff that says "will issue deprecation warnings in 6.d" but we won't actually be able to do it :\|	19:14
	*in the docs it says	19:14
jdv79	p6 has virtually no complexity limit;)	19:15
Zoffix	meh, people keep saying how Perl 6 is huge... Yesterday, I was watching lizmat's talk and a bunch of Perl 5's routines she mentioned I never even heard of.	19:15
jdv79	keeps it interesting	19:15
	those are just historical oddities	19:16
Zoffix	and in p6 they're just alternative syntaxes ;)	19:16
jdv79	ha	19:16
Zoffix	AlexDaniel: looks good. Now I just need to remember to use it :)	19:17
Bowlslaw	Perl 5 is also huge	19:19
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Zoffix	Not according to Perl 5 people who keep trashing my p6 articles :P	19:20
Bowlslaw	wut??	19:20
	btw, it's really cool that "my $client = Cro::HTTP::Client.new;" returns a promise	19:20
Zoffix	Bowlslaw: "quite a few times now I thought it was time to start learning Perl 6 […] And every time some blog post like this one comes around and I think: no. There's so much utterly unreadable syntax in here."	19:21
	:)	19:21
Bowlslaw	lolwut	19:21
	it's unreadable for me	19:21
	then, i learn how to read it, and then it's readable	19:22
	mind = blown	19:22
sena_kun	s/unreadable/I am too lazy to learn/	19:22
Bowlslaw	hm, I like Cro, and I'm probably going to start using it more, but I am worried that I don't understand react { whenever { } } yet	19:23
Zoffix	I don't understand it either, but that never stopped me :D	19:25
Bowlslaw	LOL	19:25
	I'm putting something on pastebin so I can ask for some clarification	19:25
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Bowlslaw	https://pastebin.com/G0jrt99j	19:27
	i don't understand the difference between reactwhenever and race	19:27
	if I want to use HTTP::UserAgent in a reach/whenever block, I can't just pass the result, because it's not a Promise	19:27
	whereas Cro::HTTP:Client IS a Promise	19:27
Zoffix	`react` is an event loop basically, it sits and waits for the stuff in side of it to all be done. And the stuff is specified with `whenever`s and they can accept a bunch of things like Supplies and Promises. The .race thing is just an under-the-hood parallelizer.	19:29
	m: react { whenever Supply.interval: ½ { say 10-$++; $++ ≥ 10 and done } }; say "Take off"	19:31
camelia	rakudo-moar 0721bfa75: OUTPUT: «10␤9␤8␤7␤6␤5␤4␤3␤2␤1␤0␤Take off␤»	19:31
Zoffix	it's like an "event loop"	19:32
	"whenever $event-happens { do things }"	19:32
Bowlslaw	$event-happens must be a Promise?	19:34
Zoffix	Bowlslaw: above it's a Supply	19:34
	m: react { whenever 42 {} }	19:35
camelia	rakudo-moar 0721bfa75: ( no output )	19:35
Zoffix	hm	19:35
	m: react { whenever class {} {} }	19:35
camelia	rakudo-moar 0721bfa75: ( no output )	19:35
Zoffix	I was expecting it to complain and tell me what sort of things it likes	19:35
Bowlslaw	so, can I do something like...	19:35
Zoffix	But it can be a Promise	19:35
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Bowlslaw	react { whenever $ua..get($url) -> $response { get-link() } }	19:36
Zoffix	yeah	19:36
Bowlslaw	is that concurrent?	19:36
	it is an HTTP::UerAgent object i believe	19:37
Zoffix	No, just asynchronous	19:37
	You could do `react { whenever $ua..get($url) -> $response { start get-link() } }`	19:38
	like shove the get-link stuff into a promise	19:38
Bowlslaw	ooh	19:38
	that would spawn a new thread for each new link?	19:38
Zoffix	That would stick into the work queu	19:38
	e	19:38
Bowlslaw	hmm	19:41
	so I could make an on-demand Supply..	19:41
	which fetches links...	19:41
	and whenever it fetches a link	19:41
	it processes it?	19:41
Zoffix	¯\_(ツ)_/¯	19:42
Bowlslaw	lol	19:42
Zoffix	I think I made something for you for that a couple days ago?	19:42
	With Supply.throttle	19:42
Bowlslaw	i think so...	19:43
Zoffix	$ RAKUDO_SCHEDULER_DEBUG=1 perl6 -e 'await ^100 .map: { start sleep 0 }' 2>&1 \| grep 'Added a general worker thread' \| wc -l	19:44
	0	19:44
	$ RAKUDO_SCHEDULER_DEBUG=1 perl6 -e 'await ^100 .map: { start sleep .05 }' 2>&1 \| grep 'Added a general worker thread' \| wc -l	19:44
	9	19:44
	$ RAKUDO_SCHEDULER_DEBUG=1 perl6 -e 'await ^100 .map: { start sleep ½ }' 2>&1 \| grep 'Added a general worker thread' \| wc -l	19:44
	57	19:44
	Bowlslaw: ^ that's the answer to "would that spawn a new thread"	19:44
	The numbers are spawned threads	19:44
Bowlslaw	i've been using $*THREAD	19:45
Zoffix	And that's the general queue, there's also affinity queue that's used in stuff like Proc::Async	19:45
	Where it tries to keep number of workers smaller or something	19:45
	oh and timer queue	19:46
masak	why is the name "affinity queue"? because the tasks have an affinity to something?	19:46
Zoffix	"General worker threads all pull from the main queue. If they have no work, they may steal from timer threads. Timer worker threads are intended to handle time-based events. They pull events from the time-sensitive queue, and they will not do any work stealing so as to be ready and available for timer events. Affinity worker threads each have their own queue. These are useful where events will be processed	19:48
	using a Supply, which is serial, and so there's no point at all in contending over the data. Work will not be stolen from anaffinity worker thread."	19:48
	No idea. Ask jnthn :)	19:48
	affinity to their queue? :)	19:49
masak	yeah, reads like	19:49
	my first association was "affine logic", which is not 100% unrelated, since it's also about resource usage	19:49
	but "the tasks have an affinity to this queue" sounds like the real reason for the name	19:50
SmokeMachine	is there any way to use grammar to parse stream/supply of strings?	19:50
masak	SmokeMachine: I think at some point there was supposed to be a Cat type, which is also Stringy like Str, but more lazy/unbounded	19:51
	m: say Cat	19:51
camelia	rakudo-moar 0721bfa75: OUTPUT: «=== SORRY!=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Undeclared name:␤ Cat used at line 1. Did you mean 'Rat'?␤␤»	19:51
masak	haha	19:51
Zoffix	:)	19:51
masak	no, I did not mean Rat, camelia	19:51
Zoffix	Nah, Cat is not yet implemented	19:51
	masak .oO( we just Ca't do that yet )	19:51
Zoffix	It'll need some regex diving	19:51
SmokeMachine	masak: thanks	19:51
Zoffix	And mad hax0r skills.	19:51
SmokeMachine	is there any documentation showing how should it look like?	19:52
masak	almost certainly not	19:52
Zoffix	SmokeMachine: I think there's brief mention of Cat in the speculations ( design.perl6.org )	19:52
	SmokeMachine: basically a Cat to Str is what a Seq is to a List	19:53
	So it could be infinite, really	19:53
masak	it's mentioned a total of 20 times in the spec	19:53
SmokeMachine	got it!	19:53
Zoffix	SmokeMachine: here's my failed attempt at implementing it: https://github.com/zoffixznet/perl6-Kitten#synopsis	19:54
Bowlslaw	Zoffix: I think I have something here, but I want to verify that it does that I think it does	19:54
masak	which means it's entirely untested in practice	19:54
	oh, Zoffix++ has attempted it, cool :)	19:54
SmokeMachine	and `Grammar.parse` should work on it	19:54
Zoffix	Yeah, it's needed for some IO::Handle stuff	19:54
Bowlslaw	Zoffix: What do you think of this? https://pastebin.com/auJt8Dyx	19:54
SmokeMachine	how should it work with regexes?	19:55
Bowlslaw	jnthn helped me earlier with Cro, but I want to use HTTP::UserAgent and DOM::Tiny instead, for now anyway	19:55
Zoffix	SmokeMachine: yeah, I think so. I know regexes are meant to work on them, so I think there'd be defined semantics on what would happen if you do `/^ ... $/` on a Cat. Would it die, like .elems dies on lazy lists?	19:55
Bowlslaw	so I tried to transfer the idea of his code to mine	19:55
Zoffix	Bowlslaw: you're probably better use Cro's user agent. It's possible HTTP::UserAgent is not thread safe (or rather the IO::Socket::SSL it uses or something)	19:56
Bowlslaw	hmmm	19:56
SmokeMachine	Zoffix: why Kitten failed?	19:57
Zoffix	SmokeMachine: because you need to teach regexes/grammars to handle Cat type and my character is too low-level to hack on that yet :)	19:58
Bowlslaw	alright, thanks for the help	19:58
	I suppose Cro is the useragent stuff of Perl 6 now	19:58
Zoffix	Bowlslaw: FWIW, your current setup is fine, but it's not gonna be fine if you move that inner sub out of react	19:59
	m: use v6.d.PREVIEW; react { foo }; sub foo { whenever 42 {} }	19:59
camelia	rakudo-moar 0721bfa75: OUTPUT: «=== SORRY!=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Cannot have a 'whenever' block outside the scope of a 'supply' or 'react' block␤at <tmp>:1␤------> EVIEW; react { foo }; sub foo { whenever ⏏ 42 {} } ␤»	19:59
masak	I sometimes dream also of being able to do grammars on byte streams	19:59
	to do complex deserialization, essentially	19:59
Bowlslaw	Zoffix: thanks	19:59
Zoffix	It's forbidden in 6.d, because in 6.c it was allowed by accident, but it robs us of a lot of optimization opportunities	19:59
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tbrowder_	m: my $s=“#comment”; my $idx=rindex $s, ‘#’; say $idx	20:25
camelia	rakudo-moar 0721bfa75: OUTPUT: «0␤»	20:25
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tbrowder_	hm, i’m getting a failure on that ^^^ on rakudo 2018.06-25-ge9351cb built on moar 2018.06	20:34
	testing master branch...	20:35
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AlexDaniel	6c: my $s=“#comment”; my $idx=rindex $s, ‘#’; say $idx	20:37
committable6	AlexDaniel, ¦6c (31 commits): «0␤»	20:37
AlexDaniel	tbrowder_: ↑ looks correct?	20:37
tbrowder_	yes	20:40
SmokeMachine	6c: my $s=“#comment#”; say rindex $s, ‘#’; say index $s, ‘#’	20:41
tbrowder_	i got my 2018.06 not as a download but as a tag from upstream	20:41
committable6	SmokeMachine, ¦6c (31 commits): «8␤0␤»	20:41
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tbrowder_	where are rakudo public keys located?	21:04
	that info needs to be on rakudo website somewhere, maybe on the download page?	21:05
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tbrowder_	AlexDaniel: am i missing info on rakudo website for public keys used to sign releases? otherwise, i'll file an issue.	21:13
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Bowlslaw	Hello again	21:14
AlexDaniel	tbrowder_: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/issues/426	21:14
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tbrowder_	i could make entries on the rakudo website, or a pr if i could find the source of it.	21:19
AlexDaniel	tbrowder_: honestly I don't know where most people would expect to find a public key	21:23
	if they download the tarball from the website, then IMO a public key located on that same website is of no use	21:23
	but 🤷	21:23
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AlexDaniel	u: ∞ꝏꚙ	21:26
unicodable6	AlexDaniel, U+221E INFINITY [Sm] (∞)	21:26
	AlexDaniel, U+A74F LATIN SMALL LETTER OO [Ll] (ꝏ)	21:26
	AlexDaniel, U+A699 CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER DOUBLE O [Ll] (ꚙ)	21:26
tbrowder_	not so, i think somehow magically when you sign you use your private key, so the public key from a key server (not on the website) then is used to check that you signed it	21:26
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Xliff	\o	21:30
	Can you set a constant on an object?	21:30
	Or is that something you can do in the Unit?	21:30
tbrowder_	oh, and your key should be signed by someone else, etc., to establish a chain of trust. debian or the perl foundation may have some better info on established key trust chains	21:30
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AlexDaniel	tbrowder_: that's an interesting idea	21:33
tbrowder_	what we need to do at perl gatherings is to have prearranged key signing sessions, everyone checks ids and signs keys, can be loads of fun! lots of info on how to go about that.	21:33
AlexDaniel	tbrowder_: I think debian maintainers simply use the same key to check new releases	21:33
	tbrowder_: so if someone else cuts the release (with a different key obviously), then we'd have to notify them	21:33
	or maybe we should even multi sign them? I don't know	21:34
	that's a wonderful question and I'd love to know what's the proper way to do it	21:34
tbrowder_	the guys at edument (jnthn, masak, etc.) could start, and someone like lizmat and drforr and jmerelo who go to lots of perl places could establish a pretty good trust chain in a short while	21:34
AlexDaniel	fwiw I've never been to any conference… :)	21:35
tbrowder_	the details for that i've seen. i'll find it and put it somewhere easy to find.	21:35
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tbrowder_	and that's a good excuse for you to go to one or more conferences, or at least meet some of the gang in a small, informal gathering somewhere!	21:36
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tbrowder_	here's the debian howto: https://wiki.debian.org/Keysigning	21:38
	pretty straight forward	21:39
AlexDaniel	so rust tars are signed with this key: https://keybase.io/rust	21:42
	and I wonder who has access to the private key then	21:42
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AlexDaniel	yeah I should look more into this stuff	21:48
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benjikun	Bowlslaw: how are you?	22:02
Bowlslaw	benjikun: Pretty good. jnthn and some others showed me Cro. I had been looking at it for a bit, but I just started using it today.	22:06
	How about you?	22:06
benjikun	Bowlslaw: sweet, I'm writing a forum in cro and my personal website uses it now too	22:06
	doing pretty good	22:06
	all things considered	22:06
Bowlslaw	Haha, I am planning on writing my website in Cro and hosting it on my RPi	22:07
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benjikun	It's pretty comfy if you've used libraries like it before in other languages	22:09
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xi-	Cro looks pretty great	22:15
AlexDaniel	yeah	22:20
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buggable	New CPAN upload: FindBin-0.1.7.tar.gz by LEMBARK http://modules.perl6.org/dist/FindBin:cpan:LEMBARK	22:44
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tbrowder_	ref: cro does anyone know of a website using it that has all or most of the code in public view? i would love to see an example cookbook solution with either nginx or apache.	23:09
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timotimo	you'd do it the same way you'd do any web app; mod_proxy to the port your endpoint runs at	23:11
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_Xliff_	I am actually thinking about moving some in-dev projects to Cro.	23:19
	Was actually curious if some aspects of HTTP::UserAgent were used in the design of Cro. Now it looks like the similarities are due to the protocol more than anything else.	23:20
	Still, I think some of the documentation could use some work. :)	23:20
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_Xliff_	Who works on the edument.se pages?	23:26
	"Jonathan's work with Comma shows once again our skills in Per, but also our ability to build development tools, especially on the IDEA platform." - Acke Salem / CEO	23:26
	^^ s/Per/Perl/	23:26
	tell jnthn https://edument.se/en/news/now-we-launch-comma <- This page has a mispelling of Perl in the quote from the CEO.	23:27
	.tell jnthn https://edument.se/en/news/now-we-launch-comma <- This page has a mispelling of Perl in the quote from the CEO.	23:27
yoleaux	_Xliff_: I'll pass your message to jnthn.	23:27
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