IRCloggy #perl6 2018-07-26

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	2018-07-26
Geth	¦ doc: 6377edf04d \| (Tom Browder)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) \| Makefile	00:05
	¦ doc: add missing dependency	00:05
	¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/6377edf04d	00:05
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benjikun	hey-a	00:44
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Zoffix	hack ded again	02:48
	dalek just quit	02:48
	Geth: help	02:48
Geth	Zoffix, Source at https://github.com/perl6/geth To add repo, add an 'application/json' webhook on GitHub pointing it to http://hack.p6c.org:8888/?chan=#perl6 and choose 'Send me everything' for events to send \| use `ver URL to commit` to fetch version bump changes	02:48
Zoffix	Geth still responds	02:48
	Sshed and it stuck at the loading my bash profile phase.	02:48
	Disk problems?	02:48
benjikun	hm	02:50
	docs are still up w/ search working fine	02:50
Zoffix	They're hosted on a different server	02:50
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benjikun	o, my bad	02:50
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benjikun	fixed?	02:51
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benjikun	why are the bots leaving & joining	02:51
Zoffix	I just forced-off the box and brought it back on	02:51
benjikun	ah	02:53
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benjikun	Zoffix: where is the latest specification sheet for META6.json files	03:06
	I can just find an old one on design.perl6.org	03:06
	http://design.perl6.org/S22.html#META6.json	03:06
	or is this not old	03:06
	nvm I don't think it's old lmao	03:08
	Zoffix points at the message at the top of the site	03:13
Zoffix	benjikun: that's not a specification at all. There's currently no META6.json specification.	03:13
	Related: S#450	03:14
synopsebot	S#450 [open] : https://github.com/perl6/roast/issues/450 `auth` key in META6.json spec	03:14
benjikun	oh :/	03:14
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Zoffix	All of the design.perl6.org stuff are specULATIONS. The spec is https://github.com/perl6/roast or more specifically, the lastest released spec is https://github.com/perl6/roast/tree/6.c-errata	03:24
	(spec for the language, not the META6 json I mean)	03:25
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benjikun	ah, I see	03:35
	thanks Zoffix	03:35
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Zoffix	sheesh that spammer is still at it.	03:40
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xinming	Juerd: Thanks. got it.	03:58
	AlexDaniel: I wish to use perl6 as the embed language, Before I deccided to use lua or js kind of thing to embed. now, we have perl6, Why do we need to import js or lua?	04:00
benjikun	xinming: What do you mean by embed	04:02
	like embedded in browsers?	04:02
	or embedded in anything for configs / scripting	04:03
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xinming	The config file will have some small code to determine the output template. for example, title-format: {$article.title} - {$article.author}	04:06
	and some other things. I don't want them to be hard coded.	04:06
	don't want them to be hard coded or in templates.	04:06
	so, make them as options	04:06
benjikun	Ah	04:07
	What are you making, exactly?	04:07
xinming	benjikun: eval that code with some "context" in safe env. :-)	04:08
	it's just my thought, a product series name with rules, which are different product by product.	04:08
	to generate the product model number, for examlpe some product used in industry with 220v/380v and 1000w will be something like <product-model-prefix>[380\|220v]-1000	04:11
	But the model number or model name generation rules for some models can have componentes are really really complicated depeneding on the model && components.	04:12
	So, I'm going to implement these rules generation in config as mini-template.	04:12
geekosaur	this sounds more like it might be a Grammar, rather thna eval?	04:13
xinming	geekosaur: I just use grammar to describe what I'm going to do.	04:13
benjikun	Yeah you could make your own little scripting language with grammars	04:13
xinming	actually, is just combos generation.	04:13
benjikun	interpreting through grammars	04:13
xinming	I need if-else in them.	04:13
geekosaur	so? you can do that	04:13
	I mean, perl 6 is itself a Grammar	04:14
benjikun	Yeah, you could make that in the tiny language as well	04:14
xinming	no loop for function is needed. But I just wish to embed perl6 directly.	04:14
benjikun	why do you want to embed the entirety of perl6 into something like that?	04:14
xinming	Will sort it out when I have time, But now, We have safe env. just run.	04:14
	benjikun: Because I'm going to write the app with perl6.	04:14
benjikun	hm	04:14
xinming	when I use perl5, I thought I may use js or lua to achieve this.	04:15
benjikun	I see	04:15
	it's not too hard to make a tiny language that is suited directly towards the task	04:15
	with that being said, I thought about what it would be like to have a Perl6-like language in a spreadsheet application recently, lol	04:16
xinming	benjikun: Yes, But at first, I just wish to make it done, and have enough examples to know what that mini-language should be like.	04:16
	perl6 should rule the world, all other languages should DIE... :-)	04:16
Zoffix	Who would we steal good features from then?	04:17
xinming	I wished to learn python3 well long ago, but busy with something, everytime I read doc about perl6, I'll ask myself, why do I need to learn a language which is worse than perl6. (Worse I mean in my judgement)	04:19
Zoffix	To have a different perspective.	04:19
xinming	when perl6 rules, people will also invent other languages :-)	04:19
Zoffix	Without badness, it's hard to say what is goodness :)	04:20
benjikun	- Gandhi or something	04:20
	lol	04:20
geekosaur	perl 6 is complex enough to parse that I'd not try to use it embedded	04:21
xinming	I do feel that each time I read perl6 doc, that gets me crazy about the design. And I	04:22
	And normally, this happens only when I try new features in linux, testing linux features don't last long though.	04:23
	geekosaur: I just with to use "EVAL"	04:23
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Woodi	hi :)	04:35
benjikun	hi there	04:35
Woodi	so, about features: logic programming like Prolog is based on backtracking over data[base] and we have that. also REDO and callwith thingies... question is: how much logic programming we already have implemented in v6 ?	04:37
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Woodi	also: callwith can be used as tail call elimination ?	04:54
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moritz	Woodi: the most logic/declarative programming we have is in the regex engine	05:08
	and then some in the multi dispatcher	05:08
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jmerelo	wow	05:27
yoleaux	25 Jul 2018 22:57Z <AlexDaniel> jmerelo: http://colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_log/perl6?date=2018-07-25#l1135	05:27
jmerelo	That was hard.	05:27
	.tell AlexDaniel, TimToady: OK, noted.	05:27
yoleaux	jmerelo: What kind of a name is "AlexDaniel,"?!	05:27
jmerelo	.tell AlexDaniel: OK, noted. Thanks to TimToady too.	05:27
yoleaux	jmerelo: What kind of a name is "AlexDaniel:"?!	05:27
jmerelo	.tell AlexDaniel OK, noted. Thanks to TimToady too.	05:27
yoleaux	jmerelo: I'll pass your message to AlexDaniel.	05:27
jmerelo	So just identified nicks now, right?	05:28
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geekosaur	for the moment, yes	05:33
	zoffix got fed up with the spam	05:33
jmerelo	yep, it was annoying	05:33
	we're gonna miss quite a few new users, though...	05:34
	And a few old users too, I guess.	05:35
geekosaur	yeh. the haskell channels have been putting up with the spam instad of going +r for that reason	05:37
jmerelo	Maybe it's the time to start a Telegram group, too.	05:40
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Geth	¦ doc: 37b2a4c243 \| (JJ Merelo)++ \| 2 files	06:02
	¦ doc: Eliminates a few categories	06:02
	¦ doc:	06:02
	¦ doc: But some of the others mentioned in #1410 might still be	06:02
	¦ doc: useful. Phasers and Asynchronous phasers, for example.	06:02
	¦ doc:	06:02
	¦ doc: Also some reflow.	06:02
	¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/37b2a4c243	06:02
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Geth	¦ doc: fd2872a83c \| (JJ Merelo)++ \| doc/Type/Signature.pod6	06:22
	¦ doc: Revises Signature	06:22
	¦ doc:	06:22
	¦ doc: :tick: Reflow	06:22
	¦ doc: :tick: Eliminates Unneeded Caps	06:22
synopsebot	Link: https://doc.perl6.org/type/Signature	06:22
Geth	¦ doc: :tick: Eliminates uneeded categories refs #1410	06:22
	¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/fd2872a83c	06:22
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Skarsnik	Hello	08:04
masak	ehlo	08:04
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moritz	ohle	08:20
masak	m: say "helo".comb.pick(*).join for ^0x10	08:22
camelia	rakudo-moar 434ede491: OUTPUT: «helo␤loeh␤hloe␤eolh␤lhoe␤eloh␤olhe␤eohl␤leoh␤olhe␤ehol␤leho␤ehol␤lohe␤heol␤eohl␤»	08:22
benjikun	lol	08:30
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moritz	m say "helo".comb.permutations.map(*.join)	08:30
	m: say "helo".comb.permutations.map(*.join)	08:30
camelia	rakudo-moar 434ede491: OUTPUT: «(helo heol hleo hloe hoel hole ehlo ehol elho eloh eohl eolh lheo lhoe leho leoh lohe loeh ohel ohle oehl oelh olhe oleh)␤»	08:31
masak	m: say "l" ~ "ol" x (1..5).roll	08:31
camelia	rakudo-moar 434ede491: OUTPUT: «lolololol␤»	08:31
benjikun	didn't realize .permutations was a thing	08:37
masak	yeah, I keep forgetting too	08:39
	m: say "lol".comb.permutations.map(*.join)	08:39
camelia	rakudo-moar 434ede491: OUTPUT: «(lol llo oll oll llo lol)␤»	08:39
benjikun	m: my @n = ^19; say @n.permutations	08:40
camelia	rakudo-moar 434ede491: OUTPUT: «((0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18) (0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 18 17) (0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 17 16 18) (0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 17 18 16) (0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 18 16 17) (0 1 …»	08:40
benjikun	m: my @n = ^19; say @n.permutations.permutations	08:41
	heh	08:41
camelia	rakudo-moar 434ede491: OUTPUT: «(timeout)»	08:41
masak	don't immanentize the eschaton	08:43
benjikun	all done using perl6 :)	08:44
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	masak just implemented nim addition in 007	08:46
masak	today's mini-challenge: implement nim addition in Perl 6, preferably as the operator infix:<⊕>	08:46
moritz	what's nim addition?	08:47
masak	oh wait	08:47
	we have it already	08:47
	it's called infix:<+^> in Perl 6	08:47
	well, that takes the fun out of it :P	08:48
	it was a little bit more involved in 007, mostly because of the lack of built-in operators	08:50
	here is my 007 implementation: https://github.com/masak/007/pull/351/files -- comments/reviews happily accepted	08:50
moritz	that looks slow :-)	08:51
masak	yeah...	08:53
	it's hard to do something nice with bitwise operations when the language doesn't have the operators for it	08:53
moritz	aye	08:53
masak	I'm looking at it now and thinking that what I really wanted was bitwise and and bitwise xor	08:53
	well, um. bitwise xor is what I'm implementing, so...	08:54
	never mind :)	08:54
	if I could fmt to binary and pad with zeroes, that might even be a better implementation	08:55
	not perf-wise perhaps, but shorter	08:55
lookatme	m: my int @n = ^19; say @n.permutations	09:01
camelia	rakudo-moar 434ede491: OUTPUT: «((0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18) (0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 18 17) (0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 17 16 18) (0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 17 18 16) (0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 18 16 17) (0 1 …»	09:01
lookatme	m: my int @n = ^19; say @n.permutations; say now - INIT now;	09:01
camelia	rakudo-moar 434ede491: OUTPUT: «((0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18) (0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 18 17) (0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 17 16 18) (0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 17 18 16) (0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 18 16 17) (0 1 …»	09:01
lookatme	m: my int @n = ^19; @n.permutations; say now - INIT now;	09:01
camelia	rakudo-moar 434ede491: OUTPUT: «(timeout)»	09:02
lookatme	what happened :)	09:02
	m: my int @n = ^19; $_ = @n.permutations; say now - INIT now;	09:03
camelia	rakudo-moar 434ede491: OUTPUT: «0.0035667␤»	09:03
lookatme	something wrong cause the code hang on	09:04
	m: my @n = ^19; $_ = @n.permutations; say now - INIT now;	09:04
camelia	rakudo-moar 434ede491: OUTPUT: «0.0033668␤»	09:04
dakkar	looks like sinking a sequence evaluates it	09:04
	and generating 121645100408832000 permutations takes a long time	09:05
lookatme	oh	09:05
dakkar	(that's 19 factorial)	09:05
lookatme	that's right :)	09:05
dakkar	my @a=^100;@a;1	09:05
	m: my @a=^100;@a;1	09:06
camelia	rakudo-moar 434ede491: OUTPUT: «WARNINGS for <tmp>:␤Useless use of constant integer 1 in sink context (line 1)␤Useless use of @a in sink context (line 1)␤»	09:06
dakkar	m: my @a=^100;@a;say now - INIT now;	09:06
camelia	rakudo-moar 434ede491: OUTPUT: «WARNINGS for <tmp>:␤0.001526␤Useless use of @a in sink context (line 1)␤»	09:06
dakkar	m: my @a=^1000;@a;say now - INIT now;	09:06
camelia	rakudo-moar 434ede491: OUTPUT: «WARNINGS for <tmp>:␤0.0032787␤Useless use of @a in sink context (line 1)␤»	09:06
dakkar	m: my @a=^10000;@a;say now - INIT now;	09:06
camelia	rakudo-moar 434ede491: OUTPUT: «WARNINGS for <tmp>:␤0.0074319␤Useless use of @a in sink context (line 1)␤»	09:06
dakkar	m: my @a=^100000;@a;say now - INIT now;	09:06
camelia	rakudo-moar 434ede491: OUTPUT: «WARNINGS for <tmp>:␤0.05793815␤Useless use of @a in sink context (line 1)␤»	09:06
dakkar	m: my @a=^100000;$_=@a;say now - INIT now;	09:06
camelia	rakudo-moar 434ede491: OUTPUT: «0.043061␤»	09:06
dakkar	hmm	09:06
	I may have my types wrong	09:06
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lookatme	m: my @n = ^2; @n.combinations; say now - INIT now;	09:07
camelia	rakudo-moar 434ede491: OUTPUT: «0.00237798␤»	09:07
lookatme	Is this sentence should raised an warning ?	09:08
dakkar	we've reached the limits of my knowledge ☺	09:08
masak	moritz: I got a solution working with the fmt idea that I think is largely linear instead of quadratic: https://github.com/masak/007/pull/351/files	09:09
	(of course, it uses strings, so it's still not bound to be super-fast)	09:09
benjikun	I've never you dakkar or masak	09:09
	I guess because it's 5am here and I'm still up lol	09:09
lookatme	dakkar, maybe you can open an issue ask about that, I am will off work soon	09:09
tobs	m: my @a=^10000000;@a.Seq;say now - INIT now;	09:10
dakkar	masak: I'm still amused that a high-level language needs all that code (plus the several layers of VMs) to re-implement a single CPU instruction 😜	09:10
camelia	rakudo-moar 434ede491: OUTPUT: «12.1039618␤»	09:10
masak	dakkar: yeah... :)	09:10
dakkar	masak: where's Inline::Asm when you need it?	09:10
masak	well, it's a (deliberately) underpowered high-level language. I'm mostly trying to show off custom operators	09:11
dakkar	I know, that's why I say "amused"	09:11
masak	:)	09:11
dakkar	benjikun: I'm very rarely active on here	09:11
lookatme	I am always here in the day :)	09:12
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lookatme	see u later, off work now :)	09:13
dakkar	does anyone have some concrete info about that 'permutations' being evaluated in sink context?	09:13
	as in, is it expected behaviour?	09:13
benjikun	lookatme: where are you from though?	09:16
	I'm from the USA so I wouldn't normally be on right nwo	09:17
tobs	dakkar: documentation on "sink context" says that sink context calls .sink which on Seq will exhaust the list for possible side effects.	09:19
dakkar	tobs: thank you	09:19
	so it's a case of "don't do that"	09:19
El_Che	sink context is pretty much perl 6's way of saying "what ya doing?"	09:21
tobs	m: my @a=^19; @a.permutations.skip(*); say now - INIT now	09:21
camelia	rakudo-moar 434ede491: OUTPUT: «0.0039211␤»	09:21
dakkar	that's cheating ☺	09:22
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Woodi	fact from RL world: teenager girl: What is "home page" ? :))	10:04
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masak	Woodi: well... what _is_ a home page? ;)	10:11
	is it, like a page for your dwelling?	10:11
	is it a page that you can literally spend the night in?	10:12
	is it a page that homing pidgeons will find easily?	10:12
tadzik	home page is two thirds of PHP	10:15
	masak is struck by PHP Sadness	10:16
tadzik	it's getting Personal	10:16
masak	well, in a sense we're all doing work on Personal Computers these days, since Apple ended up using an Intel chip	10:17
benjikun	is it what a traveler with a pager who is desperately trying to find home?	10:19
	*is it a	10:19
	im too lazy to restructure that sentence	10:19
masak	oh, nice nounification	10:19
benjikun	you get the point	10:19
	:p	10:19
masak	"hold on, I'm lost -- gotta make a quick Home Page to find my way"	10:20
benjikun	"using my pager"	10:20
	masak imagines a parallel universe where basically every normal term has ended up with some alternate, perfectly internally-consistent, meaning	10:20
masak	"what do you mean you do couch surfing indoors? that's insane!"	10:21
benjikun	lmao	10:21
	a literal interpretation	10:21
masak	in the parallel universe, Couch Surfing is one of the Olympic sports	10:21
	the world champion is called Benjamin Sofa	10:22
benjikun	lol	10:22
	seems to me that is THIS universe	10:22
ilmari	and the champion't title is Sofa King	10:23
	masak .oO( "are YOU Sofa King tired? come down to Sofa Land and buy our Olympic couches!" )	10:24
benjikun	being a couch potato is being an athlete	10:24
masak	benjikun: no, in the parallel universe, a "couch potato" is an ornament	10:24
	"careful! don't topple the couch potato!"	10:25
benjikun	buy your couch potato TODAY, it ensures the best of luck to you while you're out couch surfing!	10:25
woolfy	Perl Help Pages	10:27
benjikun	loool	10:28
tadzik	masak: wow, a world champion! I remember him being a little boy, but he got so fa!	10:28
masak	woolfy: are you saying writing PHP is a cry for help? :P	10:29
	tadzik: in the parallel universe "getting so fa" means becoming good at singing	10:29
benjikun	and singing means dancing	10:30
tadzik	masak: in ours it would just be getting a GF	10:31
masak	TimToady: is whitespace inside of an infix operator a bad idea? (like Python's `not in`, for example). I notice S06 explicitly forbids it.	10:40
	m: sub infix:<not in>($e, @a) { $e !(elem) @a }; say 3 not in [1, 2, 3]	10:41
camelia	rakudo-moar 1188f801d: OUTPUT: «=== SORRY!=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Too many symbols provided for categorical of type infix; needs only 1␤at <tmp>:1␤------> sub infix:<not in> ⏏ ($e, @a) { $e !(elem) @a }; say 3 not in ␤»	10:41
masak	I'm guessing the answer is "we already use space for separating multiple symbols like in circumfix:<( )>; doing both would be Very Confusing"	10:42
lizmat	masak: you are aware of ∉ I assume ?	10:42
masak	lizmat: yes, I'm just still (irrationally) Unicode-timid	10:43
	I like the Unicode operators, in theory	10:43
	it's just... sometimes I ASCII out of laziness and familiarity	10:43
lizmat	perlhaps we need a (!elem) operator ?	10:44
benjikun	you could always just not_in	10:44
dakkar	m: sub infix:{'not in'}() {}	10:44
camelia	rakudo-moar 1188f801d: OUTPUT: «===SORRY!===␤This type cannot unbox to a native string: P6opaque, Block␤»	10:44
	→ jmerelo joined	10:45
dakkar	that's an… interesting error message	10:45
benjikun	masak: or you could use "excluded" instead of "not in"	10:46
masak	benjikun: yes, but my question was about allowing whitespace, not about actually producing a useful operator :)	10:47
benjikun	oh, oops	10:47
masak	lizmat: !(elem) works and I don't see what's wrong with it	10:47
lizmat	well, its performance sucks :-)	10:48
	or maybe not... would have to test	10:48
	masak trusts in the JIT to Do The Right Thing eventually	10:48
lizmat	yeah, in that vein: I think after the release, we're going to rip out a lot of (now defunct) optimizations from the settings :-)	10:49
masak	yay	10:49
benjikun	woohoo	10:49
buggable	New CPAN upload: Sub-Memoized-0.0.2.tar.gz by ELIZABETH http://modules.perl6.org/dist/Sub::Memoized:cpan:ELIZABETH	10:51
dakkar	https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/master/src/Perl6/Grammar.nqp#L4928 ← this is where whitespace in symbols is made significant, right?	10:51
AlexDaniel	jmerelo: well, there is a matrix community, but why	10:54
yoleaux	05:27Z <jmerelo> AlexDaniel: OK, noted. Thanks to TimToady too.	10:54
jmerelo	AlexDaniel: less prone to spamming, easier to join. You mean Telegram, right?	10:55
AlexDaniel	jmerelo: yea	10:55
benjikun	I'd go with matrix over telegram	10:56
jmerelo	I don't know Matrix.	10:56
	Let's give it a try.	10:56
benjikun	It's basically newer XMPP from what I understand	10:56
xq	was there something wrong with XMPP that warranted a replacment?	10:57
benjikun	main client/thingy is riot.im	10:57
	xq must have missed the memo	10:57
	jmerelo has missed it too	10:57
	← Skarsnik left	10:57
benjikun	xq: I wouldn't say so, but XMPP's standards are all over the place	10:57
	half of the client-side stuff is either left out or varies from client-to-client	10:58
	jmerelo checking it out and deciding staying with Telegram and IRC	10:58
tadzik	xq: well, quite a few things, in my experience :)	10:59
	and matrix is not exactly an xmpp replacement	10:59
benjikun	Telegram's serverside source is closed and only maintained by the makers of telegram	10:59
tadzik	the goals are completely different	10:59
benjikun	tadzik: elaborate, how so?	10:59
tadzik	xmpp is focused on 1-1 conversations, MUCs being an afterthought. In matrix, it's all about MUCs, like in IRC, 1-1 is just a special case	11:00
benjikun	both are decentralized chat protocols that implement voice, MUC's	11:00
jmerelo	benjikun: yep, I know. But I _use_ Telegram and have it in the desktop and the phone. Can connect to GitHub. I don't want to have another messaging platform. I already quit Slack.	11:00
tadzik	xmpp is for test + extensions, matrix supports arbitrary messages as a standard	11:00
	matrix rooms (chatrooms) are federated, with no single point of failure	11:00
jmerelo	IRC, Telegram, that's it.	11:01
tadzik	MUCs on matrix can be e2e encrypted, which I think is unique generally	11:01
jmerelo	if in the future everyone moves to Matrix, I'll be there. But for the time being, everyone is on Telegram and IRC, so that's it.	11:01
benjikun	MUC OTR is possible for XMPP	11:01
El_Che	bitlbee is a nice way to get lots of protocls in your irc client	11:01
benjikun	they just never properly released the spec for it	11:01
tadzik	plus matrix is all about interconnecting messaging networks, it goes a step above xmpp transports	11:02
stmuk	they will take my console IRC client from my cold dead fingers	11:02
benjikun	tadzik: How does XMPP not interconnect the servers	11:02
tadzik	with xmpp you could use your xmpp account to talk to AIM users or whatnot. Matrix has already allowed IRC and gitter people to talk with each other by bridging both into a single matrix group	11:02
benjikun	you can send messages to any XMPP server	11:02
tadzik	benjikun: rooms, ont servers	11:02
AlexDaniel	jmerelo: “I don't want to have another messaging platform” that's exactly what matrix is trying to solve	11:02
benjikun	ah	11:02
	AlexDaniel` waves from Matrix	11:02
benjikun	AlexDaniel: last time I used riot.im, it sucked	11:03
stmuk	the NIH problem?	11:03
benjikun	what client do you use Alex?	11:03
tadzik	if #perl6:matrix.org goes down, a copy exists on every server that has users in that room	11:03
	when the "original" room goes back up, the state is synced	11:03
xq	same as irc	11:03
tadzik	em, no	11:03
benjikun	this IRC is hosted on freenode	11:03
	so no	11:03
xq	freenode has multiple servers	11:03
tadzik	I can't have an independent copy of #perl6:tadzik.net though	11:04
benjikun	eh	11:04
jmerelo	AlexDaniel: but is it really worth the while? Are there people there that aren't here? Are there any other interesting groups that are worth the while to follow?	11:04
tadzik	I have to be freenode for that to work	11:04
AlexDaniel`	benjikun: last time I looked, Riot was the only client supporting e2e encryption	11:04
xq	each server has own independent copy of #perl6	11:04
tadzik	it's still a single point of failure, it's just a bigger point	11:04
benjikun	AlexDaniel: oof	11:04
	xq: I'd have to agree with tadzik	11:04
AlexDaniel`	benjikun: so that's what I use, but perhaps it's no longer true and other clients are also useful	11:04
tadzik	I think the weechat client also does e2e	11:04
woolfy	masak: PHP was once the acronym for Perl Help Pages. I get conflicting reactions to that, but I am quite sure that's how the thing started, and later Rasmus Lerdorf changed it to Personal Home Pages, later to Professional Home Pages, and later to PHP Hypertext Processor.	11:05
tadzik	ah, nevermind, it does not	11:05
benjikun	I use telegram, discord, and irc	11:05
	all of my buds are split up throughout	11:05
tadzik	discord personally infuriates me	11:05
benjikun	I don't support telegram & discord for freedoms	11:05
AlexDaniel	jmerelo: well I dunno, but there are 15 people in matrix perl6 community	11:05
benjikun	but I use them regardless	11:05
	well I also use XMPP still sometimes too	11:06
	I guess I'll start using matrix again to join the perl6 thing lol	11:06
tadzik	benjikun: if e2e is not your thing, I run matrix-ircd to use it through weechat :P	11:06
	and by not your thing I mean "if you don't really need it for public group chats anyway"	11:07
AlexDaniel	benjikun: https://riot.im/app/#/group/+perl6:matrix.org	11:07
benjikun	I'd say we should definitely keep #perl6 as the main help-chat, but I'm all for sidegroups	11:08
AlexDaniel	well, this #perl6 channel on freenode is part of that matrix group, so… :)	11:08
benjikun	does it also forward messages from the matrix to the IRC?	11:09
	or just the opposite way around	11:09
AlexDaniel`	o/	11:09
	AlexDaniel` waves	11:09
benjikun	hmmmm	11:09
El_Che	woolfy: if what you say is a fact, you should edit wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PHP	11:09
jmerelo	woolfy: I am not sure, but I've heard that was an urban legend. It has stuck because, originally, PHP was basically Perl in the web.	11:11
woolfy	Claudio Ramirez: I can't proof it. When Liz and I started with Perl in 1994, we also shortly used PHP, which was at the time just renamed from "Perl Help Pages" to "Personal Home Pages". Maybe somewhere in my old backups I could find it... but it would take me days (or more) to find it.	11:12
masak	woolfy: interesting.	11:12
	I had no idea :)	11:12
jmerelo	woolfy: it says so in a number of places, like here http://www.softpanorama.org/Scripting/Perlbook/Ch01/place_of_perl_among_other_lang.shtml	11:12
	woolfy: what I heard was "perl _home_ pages", not _help_ pages.	11:13
woolfy	(I mean, I was a bit of a nutcase then, storing whole websites on my computer... when websites were just dozens of pages...)(I am still a nutcase)	11:13
El_Che	The 1.0 version was called "Personql Home Page Tools): https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/comp.infosystems.www.authoring.cgi/PyJ25gZ6z7A/M9FkTUVDfcwJ	11:13
lizmat	dakkar: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/d60be5e4a1	11:14
El_Che	woolfy: it seems an interesting piece of history. Look it up if you have the time, and change Wikipedia pointing to your source	11:14
woolfy	jmerelo; that is a cool page, and I didn't know "Perl Home Pages" yet.	11:14
jmerelo	woolfy: another reference here http://www.london.pm/pipermail/london.pm/Week-of-Mon-20121119/022967.html	11:14
	woolfy: most references come from the Perl field, so I don't really know if it was an April fools prank or general mockery.	11:15
woolfy	jmerelo: Thanks! But I remember using the offline Perl documentation, and that there was an alternative, "Perl Help Pages", made by Lerdorf. Indeed, more pleasant to use at the time. But difficult to maintain, so shortlived.	11:15
jmerelo	woolfy: so you say those Perl help pages created by Lerdorf led eventually to the creation of PHP? Or that it was a language written for them by him?	11:16
stmuk	http://museum.php.net/php1/ is the oldest php I can find	11:17
El_Che	(I don't think that pointing out that Perl birthed PHP would help make Perl 5 more popular :) )	11:17
jmerelo	El_Che: right. :-)	11:17
woolfy	jmerelo: the first one: as far as I remember, he created an alternative to the perldocs, called them "Perl Help Pages", figured out that the program he made to convert perldoc to "Perl Help Pages" could also be used to convert information to webpages, and upgraded his toolset to a programming language and renamed it	11:17
	to Personal Home Pages.	11:17
El_Che	https://twitter.com/rasmus/status/226405807305138176	11:18
	"	11:18
	Rasmus Lerdorf	11:18
	‏Verified account @rasmus	11:18
	I wonder why people keep writing that PHP was ever written in Perl. It never was. #php	11:18
	"	11:18
	interesting thread:	11:18
	https://twitter.com/rasmus/status/226405807305138176	11:18
stmuk	Personal Home Page Tools/Forms Interpreter was pre PHP 1 see http://php.net/manual/en/history.php.php	11:19
	that's an ugly url ;)	11:19
El_Che	http://svn.php.net/viewvc/phpdoc/en/trunk/appendices/history.xml?r1=64852&r2=65199&pathrev=314121	11:19
	PHP succeeds an older product, named PHP/FI. PHP/FI was	11:19
	21 created by Rasmus Lerdorf in 1995, initially as a simple	11:19
	22 set of Perl scripts for tracking accesses to his online	11:19
	23 resume. He named this set of scripts 'Personal Home Page	11:19
	24 Tools'.	11:19
jmerelo	El_Che: DocBook!	11:19
	stmuk: tru dat	11:20
stmuk	"PHP/FI was created by Rasmus Lerdorf in 1995, initially as a simple set of Perl scripts for tracking accesses to his online resume. He named this set of scripts 'Personal Home Page Tools'."	11:20
El_Che	they removed that perl reference in the pages on the website though	11:20
stmuk	El_Che: no its there	11:21
El_Che	http://php.net/manual/en/history.php.php <--gone there	11:22
	. Originally used for tracking visits to his online resume, he named the suite of scripts "Personal Home Page Tools," more frequently referenced as "PHP Tools."	11:22
woolfy	It still is weird that lizmat and I used PHP in 1994...	11:23
lizmat	to my recollection, 1.9b6 was the last version I used	11:23
	most of the PHP we used was generated using Perl	11:24
	this was before there was mod_perl	11:24
woolfy	But it is cool that there seems to be a basis for my claim that PHP came from Perl. Not that I just completely fantasised the story into existence... :-)	11:24
El_Che	woolfy: the twitter threads suggest that that wording is an error	11:24
jmerelo	woolfy: and now it's on the web so somebody can say "I've read on the web that PHP started as Perl Help Pages"	11:25
El_Che	the pre 1995 php release was C cgi program	11:26
woolfy	El_Che: twitter did not exist yet in 1994, so whatever is on twitter is not always the truth (no, Donald, because you wrote something on twitter does not make it truth nor US policy!)	11:26
El_Che	it's a thread started by the maker of php	11:26
woolfy	The maker of php who is not a big friend of Perl anymore...	11:26
El_Che	I am not saying they are nog being revisionist, but it has more weight than a random Trump tweet :)	11:27
woolfy	But I am interfering with your awesome Perl 6 hackings, so please change the subject.	11:27
	;-)	11:27
El_Che	woolfy: you brought an interesting subject on the table	11:27
masak	woolfy: thank you though for the interesting historical delve	11:27
El_Che	always a nice break	11:27
	on->to	11:28
woolfy	masak El_Che : we still have an immense amount of backups in our cellar. At some point I will start digging.	11:29
	(backups going back to 1986, even)	11:29
El_Che	make sure they film it when you start	11:30
woolfy	Will do	11:30
El_Che	is it computer history or a hoarding docu?	11:30
	keep tuned!	11:30
woolfy	Hoarding! Definitely.	11:32
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	→ robertle joined	12:13
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	→ jmerelo joined	12:19
araraloren	m: say 4.roots	12:22
camelia	rakudo-moar d60be5e4a: OUTPUT: «Too few positionals passed; expected 2 arguments but got 1␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»	12:22
	→ koto joined	12:22
araraloren	m: say 4.roots(2)	12:22
camelia	rakudo-moar d60be5e4a: OUTPUT: «(2+0i -2+2.4492935982947064e-16i)␤»	12:22
araraloren	what's this `-2+2.4492935982947064e-16i` ?	12:22
jmerelo	araraloren: pretty close to 0, I guess.	12:22
araraloren	How can I get the -2+0i	12:23
	← sena_kun left	12:24
jmerelo	araraloren: you can use approximate comparison...	12:24
	m: say 4.roots(2)[1] =~= -2+0i	12:25
camelia	rakudo-moar d60be5e4a: OUTPUT: «True␤»	12:25
araraloren	m: say 4.roots(2)[0].WHAT	12:26
camelia	rakudo-moar d60be5e4a: OUTPUT: «(Complex)␤»	12:26
jmerelo	Ah, you want the first one	12:26
	m: say 4.roots(2)[0]	12:26
camelia	rakudo-moar d60be5e4a: OUTPUT: «2+0i␤»	12:26
	← jmerelo left	12:26
araraloren	m: say 4.roots(2)>>.narrow	12:42
camelia	rakudo-moar d60be5e4a: OUTPUT: «(2 -2)␤»	12:42
	→ xinming joined	12:45
xinming	can #perl6 be set with un-indentified not able to send message?	12:46
	otherwise, whenever my network discconnect, I got kicked from the room	12:46
El_Che	whut?	12:48
	(I am un-identified, by the way)	12:48
lizmat	xinming: doesn't your chat client allow automatic identification when joining ?	12:48
xinming	lizmat: I don't set auto identification for my irssi :-)	12:49
	well, check that, thanks.	12:49
El_Che	I am using irssi without authenticating and I am not kicked from rooms	12:50
xinming	because it says my name is used by someone else.	12:50
masak	araraloren: you probably know this, but in general anything involving floating-point calculations (like Complex) is not guaranteed to be exact. square roots are a good example.	12:51
lizmat	El_Che: but are you able to leave #perl6 now and come back without identification?	12:51
masak	araraloren: in practice, I think complex square roots are implemented using logarithms, so internally it's a multistep operation in which more precision can be lost	12:51
araraloren	yeah, I see	12:52
masak	over the years, the more I learned about doubles, the less enthused I've become about using them :)	12:52
	sometimes they are the right choice, but a bit less often than you'd think	12:52
araraloren	okay, thanks for ur explain	12:53
	yeah, I just write some exercise of a book	12:53
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masak	there was talk of maybe making Complex a parameterized type, that is `Complex[Real ::T]`	13:00
	but that initiative seems to have been put on hold, or petered out. in the current Rakudo source, Complex has two `num`s	13:00
	→ [particle] joined	13:00
	masak dreams of Gaussian integers	13:00
masak	heh, maybe I should publish a module or two	13:01
	Complex::Gaussian and Complex::Eisenstein	13:01
	and maybe Complex::Rat	13:02
lizmat	masak: now we're on that track, any thoughts about adding http://modules.perl6.org/dist/Tuple to the core?	13:03
masak	I see Util already wrote Math::Quaternion, but there is still room for Math::Quaternion::Hurwitz... :)	13:04
	lizmat: looking	13:04
moritz	lizmat: how many modules are using Tuple?	13:04
	→ mcmillhj joined	13:04
lizmat	none so far, that I know of	13:04
moritz	that doesn't speak for including it in core	13:05
lizmat	no, but it is a bit of a FAQ as to why you cannot use Lists in Sets	13:05
Geth	¦ perl6.org: 5df6abe65b \| (Claudio Ramirez)++ \| source/community/irc.html	13:06
	¦ perl6.org: Remove reference to moritz logs, also: Let me in: /mode -R #perl6	13:06
	¦ perl6.org: review: https://github.com/perl6/perl6.org/commit/5df6abe65b	13:06
	¦ perl6.org: 0d4c33f814 \| (Claudio Ramirez)++ \| 7 files	13:06
	¦ perl6.org: Merge branch 'master' of github.com:perl6/perl6.org	13:06
	¦ perl6.org: review: https://github.com/perl6/perl6.org/commit/0d4c33f814	13:06
stmuk	I would hope the /mode +R is ten	13:07
	err temporary only	13:08
masak	lizmat: I wouldn't mind including it, but I feel it's more up to @Larry, not me -- adding of core types is serious business, and can have wide-ranging design impact :)	13:08
lizmat	masak: I'll take that as a +1 :-)	13:10
masak	it's a +1 which has invalidated itself ;)	13:11
	lizmat: I'm sympathetic, because just the other week I added a Tuple type to 007	13:11
rjbs	wait, wait, you're already working on Perl 007?	13:14
masak	:)	13:15
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masak	rjbs: just in case you're actually wondering -- 007 is a "move fast and break things" sandbox for Perl 6 macros. it's a compiler/runtime (implemented in Perl 6), kind of a mix between Perl 6 and Python.	13:16
	rjbs: I started writing it in late 2014. its macros support is already better than Rakudo's, but I'm getting _tantalizingly_ close to it actually being _useful_ and (shortly after that) _impressive_	13:17
stmuk	releasable6: status	13:17
releasable6	stmuk, Next release will happen when it's ready. 3 blockers. 80 out of 252 commits logged (⚠ 3 warnings)	13:17
	stmuk, Details: https://gist.github.com/cc6b8bec917b820f3ba44649a27d5f3a	13:17
masak	rjbs: apart from a few tricky corners, I already have lexical hygiene. I have a plan for how to get `is parsed` support -- that is, macros parsed by custom regexes.	13:19
	and when I say "I", I actually mean "we", because sergot++ and vendethiel++ have been a big help too.	13:19
rjbs	masak: thanks!	13:21
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masak	for people who want to give it a spin, 007 can be found at https://github.com/masak/007 or downloaded with zef	13:28
	I'm also in the process of writing Really Useful Language Documentation: https://gist.github.com/masak/010ba2ab93a5632c1667155339ffd05b -- comments and nits appreciated	13:29
	proudly, 007 has a test suite with 974 tests :)	13:30
moritz	{ n: 42 } Dict	13:30
	there's no auto-quoting going o here, right?	13:30
masak	yes, there is auto-quoting :)	13:31
	Dicts with auto-quoting \o/	13:31
	$ bin/007 -e='say({ n: 42 })'	13:31
	{n: 42}	13:31
	moritz: in general, you'll find 007 to be a pleasant hybrid between Perl 6 and Python	13:32
moritz	ok	13:32
	masak: well, the n: syntax reminded me of python, with no auto quoting	13:32
masak	fwiw, I've been debating back and forth about the auto-quoting. right now it's on	13:32
moritz	and perl gets away with both autoquoting and allowing variables as keys in hash literals through sigils, which 007 dropped	13:33
	→ lucasb joined	13:33
masak	fwiw, 007 also has "dictionary shorthand", a la JavaScript:	13:33
	$ bin/007 -e='my n = 42; say({ n })'	13:33
	{n: 42}	13:33
	(so can't use that syntax for sets)	13:33
	there's tradeoffs to everything	13:34
moritz	colonpairs with them colos :)	13:34
	*colons	13:34
xq	unless you're apl	13:34
masak	xq: are you suggesting APL hasn't made tradeoffs? have you seen APL? :P	13:34
xq	different tradeoffs :P	13:34
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	masak .oO( everyone has to make tradeoffs; you just have to pick which ones you have to make )	13:35
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timotimo	hey now don't go starting a trade-off war	13:36
masak	languages are not a zero-sum game, Guido	13:37
buggable	New CPAN upload: Sparrowdo-VSTS-YAML-DotNet-0.0.1.tar.gz by MELEZHIK https://cpan.metacpan.org/authors/id/M/ME/MELEZHIK/Perl6/Sparrowdo-VSTS-YAML-DotNet-0.0.1.tar.gz	13:41
	New CPAN upload: Sparrowdo-VSTS-YAML-MsBuild-0.0.1.tar.gz by MELEZHIK https://cpan.metacpan.org/authors/id/M/ME/MELEZHIK/Perl6/Sparrowdo-VSTS-YAML-MsBuild-0.0.1.tar.gz	13:41
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jkramer	m: say sprintf('%02.2f', 1.2345)	14:00
camelia	rakudo-moar 3158ae7e0: OUTPUT: «1.23␤»	14:00
jkramer	Shouldn't this print 01.23?	14:00
	It works with spaces for padding	14:00
	m: say sprintf('% 2.2f', 1.2345)	14:00
camelia	rakudo-moar 3158ae7e0: OUTPUT: « 1.23␤»	14:00
dogbert2	m: say sprintf('%05.2f', 1.2345)	14:02
camelia	rakudo-moar 3158ae7e0: OUTPUT: «01.23␤»	14:02
jkramer	Oh I see :)	14:02
	Thanks	14:02
masak	yeah, the 5 is the total width	14:09
lucasb	.oO( Then the devil is 6... )	14:19
tbrowder_	masak: do you have a post somewhere that described why you started the 007 project?	14:21
masak	tbrowder_: I would start with http://strangelyconsistent.org/blog/double-oh-seven and then http://strangelyconsistent.org/blog/has-it-been-three-years	14:23
	tbrowder_: if you want deeper/internal musings, I recommend https://github.com/masak/007/issues/294#issuecomment-392284140 and following comments	14:24
	(warning: technical)	14:25
tbrowder_	thanks, i thought i hsd seen something about it before. what do you think about putting those links in the 007 docs? or did i miss them.	14:25
	→ warriors joined	14:26
AlexDaniel	treegrep: .t6	14:27
greppable6	AlexDaniel, Found nothing!	14:27
masak	tbrowder_: oh, that's a good idea. I already have an issue for re-writing the README.md, so I'll add it there	14:27
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tbrowder_	and i always liked the james bond parody	14:29
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tbrowder_	in the good parody sense	14:30
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jkramer	m: say 123.&sprintf('%d')	14:33
camelia	rakudo-moar 3158ae7e0: OUTPUT: «Your printf-style directives specify 0 arguments, but 1 argument was supplied␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»	14:33
jkramer	Shouldn't this work? I know could just use .fmt but shouldn't this be equivalent to sprintf('%d', 123)?	14:33
timotimo	no, that's the wrong way around	14:34
jkramer	m: say '%d'.&sprintf(123)	14:34
camelia	rakudo-moar 3158ae7e0: OUTPUT: «123␤»	14:34
timotimo	yeah	14:34
	for the order you have there you can really only use fmt, i think	14:35
	though fmt has different semantics when you have more than one value	14:35
jkramer	But why? I mean it's clear the '%d'.sprintf (method call) works that way, but with .& shouldn't it call the sub?	14:35
timotimo	it does call the sub	14:35
	a.&foo(b) is the same as foo(a, b)	14:35
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jkramer	Oh, I was sure it was the other way around	14:36
timotimo	that's why the equivalent of 123.&sprintf('%d') isn't sprintf('%d', 123), but the other one	14:36
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masak	tbrowder_: thank you :)	15:15
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Geth	¦ perl6.org: aff755ca6e \| 唐鳳++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) \| source/community/irc.html	15:24
	¦ perl6.org: Fix URL to colabti logger	15:24
	¦ perl6.org: review: https://github.com/perl6/perl6.org/commit/aff755ca6e	15:24
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Geth	¦ doc: 662d8b900a \| 唐鳳++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) \| doc/Language/faq.pod6	15:33
	¦ doc: Fix typo; replace   with U+000A0	15:33
	¦ doc:	15:33
	¦ doc: Before this change, https://docs.perl6.org/language/faq shows literal ` ` in place of the expected non-break space.	15:33
	¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/662d8b900a	15:33
synopsebot	Link: https://doc.perl6.org/language/faq	15:33
donpdonp	zef list -> URI:ver<.0.1.4>; use URI; URI.^ver -> I would expect "0.1.4" but I get (Mu)	15:35
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masak	so, I'm about to switch all the .pm modules in 007 over to .pm6	15:47
	(reason: Comma really likes to assume that .pm files are Perl 5)	15:48
	I'm curious, though: is there anyone else who doesn't use .pm6 for Perl 6 module files at this point? or am I the last island of resistance? :)	15:48
timotimo	masak: could you write a short paragraph to end my blog post in? :D	15:51
masak	timotimo: not sure I understand what you're asking for, but here goes:	15:53
	timotimo: "...In conclusion, all of the people who oppose my plan for world domination will be treated in the most appropriate manner. I wish nothing but the best to my enemies. May you rest easily at night, and may your futures bloom and florish!"	15:54
timotimo	that's fantastic!	15:54
	thank you very much	15:54
masak	no problemo	15:55
	I dunno if "bloom and florish" is overdoing it a bit. those are technically synonyms.	15:56
Juerd	masak: So far I have not used .pm6	15:56
timotimo	bloom and prosper?	15:56
Juerd	Mostly because it's hard to type. The keys are all over the keyboard.	15:56
timotimo	not quite	15:56
masak	"bloom and prosper" sounds borderline Vulcan, though	15:56
Juerd	6 is the worst key ever.	15:56
	It's out of reach of every finger	15:56
masak	Juerd: we should have called it "Perl."	15:56
Juerd	masak: Anything but	15:56
timotimo	so the files would be .pm.?	15:57
masak	timotimo: right	15:57
	oh! or "Perl*"	15:57
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Juerd	Just call the language Whatever.	15:57
timotimo	Watlang	15:57
	masak .oO( "the asterisk is pronounced 'cough'" )	15:57
timotimo	.o( watlab )	15:57
	masak: did you mean to spell it "flourish" or do i just not realize what "florish" is?	16:02
masak	timotimo: the former, but...	16:02
timotimo	the florish is lavish	16:03
masak	timotimo: ...please go with "bloom and burgeon!" instead	16:04
	we get both the alliteration, and two non-synonyms	16:04
jkramer	I like the thought of ending any letter, email or publication with "In restrospect, this whole thing was a financial disaster."	16:06
timotimo	"please consider the environment before printing this website"	16:07
masak	"Of course, in the end, Zhuangzi couldn't tell if he had been dreaming of the butterfly, or if he was just something the butterfly was still dreaming about."	16:08
jkramer	That's good too. But it should be followed by two pages of "This email is intellectual property of <whoever sent it>. If you're not the recipient of this email or received it in error, delete it immediately and forget about its contents or we will sue you" or something along those lines	16:08
timotimo	https://wakelift.de/p/d42d5648-001d-4d7c-9070-514c76637eb8/ - i'd appreciate a little proofreading :)	16:10
masak	jkramer: I'm not sure I would want to contribute to such nonsense, even in jest ;)	16:10
	timotimo: on second thought, I think it's "for my enemies"	16:11
timotimo	fixed in the draft	16:12
	BBIAB	16:12
jkramer	timotimo: Is this for a perl foundation grant? I think the financial disaster line would be even funnier there. Doesn't have to mean anything, it'll just confuse people :)	16:14
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Geth	¦ perl6.org: 0d4ff5adce \| (Zoffix Znet)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) \| source/community/irc.html	16:24
	¦ perl6.org: Fix up IRC page	16:24
	¦ perl6.org:	16:24
	¦ perl6.org: - Link to today's log page instead of list of days	16:24
	¦ perl6.org: - Colabti don't do any special Perl 6 processing; remove that prose	16:24
	¦ perl6.org: - Tell people what the appropriate place for Perl 5 topics is	16:24
	¦ perl6.org: review: https://github.com/perl6/perl6.org/commit/0d4ff5adce	16:24
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lizmat	timotimo: perhaps put a link to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tracing_garbage_collection#Naïve_mark-and-sweep in there somewhere ?	16:36
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lizmat	timotimo: other than that, no remarks except a +1 :-)	16:39
Geth	¦ doc: Kaiepi++ created pull request #2219: Document grammar attributes	16:42
	¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/pull/2219	16:42
Zoffix	lizmat: IMO instead of any Tuple types, the rejection of List having .WHICH dependent solely on contents should be rethought instead. For example, Map's .WHICH solely depends on contents, as is Set/Bag/Mix's What exactly makes List special that it needs a separate type to offer that behaviour	16:46
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Zoffix	lizmat: it was pointed out on R#1959 https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/issues/1959#issuecomment-400728917 but perhaps wasn't discussed entirely.	16:46
synopsebot	R#1959 [closed] : https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/issues/1959 Empty set()/bag()/mix() do not return a unique object	16:46
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lizmat	Zoffix: that would be one way	16:47
	but still, people will continue to make Lists like ($a,$b,$c), and they then will continue to not be a value type	16:47
	so I'm thinking, like you would either slip($a,$b,$c) or set($a,$b,$c), you could also tuple($a,$b,$c)	16:48
Zoffix	m: my ($a, $b, $c) = 1, 2, 3; dd ($a,$b,$c)	16:48
camelia	rakudo-moar 2c7692fc7: OUTPUT: «(1, 2, 3)␤»	16:48
Zoffix	lizmat: why not? Looks like it deconts	16:49
	oh does it	16:49
lizmat	nope, it doesn't decont	16:49
Zoffix	m: my ($a, $b, $c) = 1, 2, 3; use nqp; dd nqp::iscont(($a,$b,$c)[0])	16:49
camelia	rakudo-moar 2c7692fc7: OUTPUT: «1␤»	16:49
Zoffix	ah	16:49
lizmat	which is exactly the propbm,e	16:49
	problem rather	16:49
Zoffix	m: my ($a, $b, $c) = 1, 2, 3; use nqp; dd nqp::iscont({foo => $a}<foo>)	16:50
camelia	rakudo-moar 2c7692fc7: OUTPUT: «1␤»	16:50
Zoffix	m: my ($a, $b, $c) = 1, 2, 3; use nqp; dd nqp::iscont((Map.new: (foo => $a))<foo>)	16:50
camelia	rakudo-moar 2c7692fc7: OUTPUT: «0␤»	16:50
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Zoffix	I see	16:50
jnthn	If it did decont, then you'd not be able to do list assignment :)	16:51
Zoffix	yeah :)	16:51
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timotimo	jkramer: i wouldn't dare include the financial disaster line for that reason :)	16:53
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timotimo	Lol, i blogged! https://wakelift.de/2018/07/26/wow-check-out-this-garbage/	16:59
Zoffix	Is this guy trolling me? https://twitter.com/_confuseAcat_/status/1022526136339898368	16:59
	Or was Perl town really named after Perl 5?	16:59
	"But in 1789, the people were sick and tired of living in Sedstadt."... In 1789?	17:00
timotimo	i think that's just comedy	17:02
	TimToady feels old, but not that old...	17:02
Zoffix	Ah. OK :)	17:02
TimToady	though if you swap the 7 and the 9, that's when Perl was born...	17:04
lizmat	:-)	17:05
Zoffix	Crazy to think that on the other side of a planet at the same time there was a baby pooping into a diaper that in 30 years would become one of the core developers :P	17:05
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TimToady	I think I picked a good time to live, but other generations are free to disagree. :)	17:12
jmerelo	Zoffix: I think it's a reference to sed :-)	17:13
	Zoffix: plus stadt → ville or city in German	17:13
	Zoffix: sedstadt → city of sed	17:13
TimToady	and the stream running through it was the Ed?	17:14
jmerelo	TimToady++	17:17
	TimToady: it was initially called \| , but people found that difficult to pronounce. Some people whistled, some sighed, some did some hand-gesturing. So it was finally called Ed.	17:17
TimToady	u: 🎏	17:19
unicodable6	TimToady, U+1F38F CARP STREAMER [So] (🎏)	17:19
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lizmat	weekly: https://wakelift.de/2018/07/26/wow-check-out-this-garbage/	17:21
notable6	lizmat, Noted!	17:21
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stmuk_	apparently ed was supposed to be spoken e-d not as in the talking horse	17:23
	according to twitter	17:23
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jmerelo	I don't know if you've seen this: https://twitter.com/jjmerelo/status/1022533003384442880	17:24
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AlexDani`	jmerelo: I wonder why specificication was not caught by the spell checker	17:28
jmerelo	AlexDani`: it's only run from time to time...	17:28
	AlexDani`: Also, about the "books" issue	17:29
	AlexDani`: I was about to work on that. Is it OK if I include a reference to the page where those resources were originally?	17:30
	AlexDani`: I think it does not hurt if the list is in both places.	17:30
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jmerelo	AlexDaniel: see above	17:30
AlexDaniel	jmerelo: well, if the list is in both places, who is going to keep them in sync?	17:31
	jmerelo: linking to perl6.org is ok	17:31
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AlexDaniel	linking to docs.perl6.org from perl6.org is also fine	17:32
jmerelo	AlexDaniel: I'll take care of the doc part	17:33
	I've added a link to the perl6 resources page (and fixed a   that was still there)	17:34
Geth	¦ doc: aa4363f783 \| (JJ Merelo)++ \| doc/Language/faq.pod6	17:35
	¦ doc: perl6.org linked, added whitespace, closes #2143	17:35
	¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/aa4363f783	17:35
synopsebot	Link: https://doc.perl6.org/language/faq	17:35
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AlexDaniel	jmerelo: I guess I'm stubborn, but I still don't get why we keep two lists	17:37
	or even three if you count https://perl6book.com/	17:38
jmerelo	AlexDaniel: I keep the list at perl6/doc because lizmat requested it on an issue. I don't know about the rest...	17:39
	moritz keeps perl6book.com	17:39
AlexDaniel	jmerelo: as people say, if somebody opened an issue asking you to defenestrate yourself, would you do it? :)	17:40
jmerelo	AlexDaniel: it's lizmat. I might do it.	17:40
	AlexDaniel opens the issue in an attempt to find a justification	17:40
jmerelo	AlexDaniel: no, please, no... not again.	17:40
lizmat	AlexDaniel: my justification was "perldoc perlbook"	17:41
AlexDaniel	lizmat: cool, so what if we link to the docs from https://perl6.org/resources/ ?	17:42
	doing that will also unclutter the resources page, I think	17:42
jmerelo	AlexDaniel: you mean eliminate that frame completely? There's some stuff there (work in progress) that is not in perl6/doc, which includes only published books.	17:43
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TimToady	.oO(Reuse the Resource, Luke!)	17:43
jmerelo	TimToady++	17:43
	TimToady: (took me a little while to get it)	17:43
lizmat	FWIW, I think mentioning books that are in progress detracts from the fact that there are plenty of published Perl 6 books now	17:43
	so I wouldn't mind seeing the "in progress" books not mentioned at all	17:44
	it served a purpose when there were hardly any books yet	17:44
	but that's different now, I would thibnk	17:44
	*think	17:44
jmerelo	lizmat: maybe open another issue there asking for deletion (and link to perl6/doc)	17:45
lizmat	ok, will do unless someone else beats me to that :-)	17:46
Geth	¦ doc: eedafd1b1b \| (JJ Merelo)++ \| doc/Language/faq.pod6	17:48
	¦ doc: Some typography changes	17:48
	¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/eedafd1b1b	17:48
synopsebot	Link: https://doc.perl6.org/language/faq	17:48
AlexDaniel	squashable6: next	17:50
squashable6	AlexDaniel, Next SQUASHathon in 7 days and ≈16 hours (2018-08-04 UTC-12⌁UTC+14). See https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/wiki/Monthly-Bug-Squash-Day	17:50
AlexDaniel	I remember we had some squashathon hero this time? :)	17:51
jmerelo	AlexDaniel: it's bitrot time, right?	17:51
AlexDaniel	yeah, I think so	17:51
jmerelo	AlexDaniel: I'm going to be in Ireland for a viva. Might be able to pitch in on the trip back...	17:51
AlexDaniel	cool	17:52
	but it's unlikely I'll have enough time to organize it	17:52
jmerelo	AlexDaniel: I have time _before_ that	17:52
AlexDaniel	especially cuz it's a non-typical squashathon	17:52
jmerelo	AlexDaniel: but you can still set up the bots, right?	17:53
AlexDaniel	jmerelo: sure, but what exactly? :) So, we can take all modules that are always red from here: https://toast.6lang.org/	17:53
jmerelo	AlexDaniel: Right.	17:53
AlexDaniel	and then…?	17:53
	create a project on https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/projects ?	17:53
	most people don't have access to that though? Needs to be in a perl6/ repo?	17:54
jmerelo	AlexDaniel: right.	17:54
	AlexDaniel: maybe we should try and look for modules which are deep upstream in the "river"	17:54
	AlexDaniel: but I don't know if we have that graph for Perl 6 modules...	17:55
AlexDaniel	we did I think?	17:55
jmerelo	AlexDaniel: did we?	17:55
AlexDaniel	I'm pretty sure I've seen some graphs, yes	17:55
	but I don't know if it was committed anywhere	17:55
	who was working on that?	17:55
jmerelo	AlexDaniel: there's this guy, AlexDaniel, who created this issue... https://github.com/zoffixznet/perl6-Toaster/issues/1	17:56
AlexDaniel	but that's for toaster	17:56
	which would be nice, yes	17:56
	but there's also a graph generator for zef or something like that	17:56
	jmerelo: what if instead of “projects” we use issues?	17:57
jmerelo	AlexDaniel: https://github.com/Leont/build-graph6	17:57
	AlexDaniel: of course, it's much better.	17:57
AlexDaniel	then we'd just need to write a script that can populate the repo with issues based on toaster list	17:58
	issue text can link to other tickets for dependencies	17:58
jmerelo	AlexDaniel: I would rather choose by hand a few modules. Most of the modules in toaster have no dependency	17:58
	AlexDaniel: not been able to find any kind dependency chart. I can try and create it.	18:01
AlexDaniel	.seen sarna	18:03
	dpk: yoleaux is down?	18:04
	oh, is it because it's not identified, or something like that?	18:04
jmerelo	AlexDaniel: I was gonna say that.	18:04
AlexDaniel	evalable6: uptime	18:05
evalable6	AlexDaniel, 1 week, 5 days, 11 hours, 8 minutes, and 38 seconds, 570.609375MiB maxrss. This is Rakudo version 2018.05-118-gff2bc1143 built on MoarVM version 2018.05-131-g9fb02c950 implementing Perl 6.c.	18:05
	AlexDaniel wonders why all ables are up, if only 5 of them can possibly identify	18:05
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El_Che	AlexDaniel: I saw a discussion in moarvm about the next release. If the release is weak, i think is better to postpone it. All the Debian/Centos/Ubuntu/Fedora/RHEL users using my package will automatically upgrade to the latest release as they use repos	18:09
AlexDaniel	El_Che: yes I'm fully against making a bad release	18:10
El_Che	I glad to hear that	18:12
	'm	18:12
Kaiepi	is there a way to wrap a token in a grammar?	18:12
	i have a ton of tokens that are formatted like \x[FF]\x[FA]<.sym>{*}\x[FF]\x[F0], but i don't want to keep repeating myself over 100 times	18:13
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timotimo	a protot oken should be able to do it	18:16
	if you have regex enzymes, you can eves use a protein token	18:17
jmerelo	timotimo++	18:18
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dpk	fixed	18:23
	it must have issued the JOIN command before it was fully identified for some reason	18:23
	even though i'm sure i wrote code to stop it doing that. but anyway	18:24
AlexDaniel	dpk: thank you ♥	18:24
	.seen sarna	18:24
yoleaux	I saw sarna 24 Jul 2018 07:56Z in #perl6: <sarna> o/	18:24
AlexDaniel	.tell sarna squashathon discussion http://colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_log/perl6?date=2018-07-26#l900	18:25
yoleaux	AlexDaniel: I'll pass your message to sarna.	18:25
fbynite	how can I create a Pair with a scalar value as the key? I've tried ':$var => 123' which produces '(var => var_value) => 123'	18:27
timotimo	you probably have to go through the Pair.new constructor if you want it to keep the scalar, though perhaps it'll decont anyway	18:27
lizmat	timotimo fbynite: since we consider a Pair a single key Map/Hash, and keys are immutable in Map/Hash, you cannot create a Pair with a mutable key	18:30
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fbynite	Pair.new produced the expected results	18:33
lizmat	it does ?	18:33
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fbynite	yea, I get Pair.new($var, 123) produces: 'var_value => 123'	18:36
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Zoffix	ugh they left.	18:43
	I think there was a miscommunication. The person simply wanted a key to come from a variable.	18:44
	Rather than wanting to keep a Scalar container around it	18:44
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timotimo	ooooh	18:51
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Kaiepi	m: grammar Foo { token TOP { <a:sym(0)> }; proto token a {*}; token a:sym(0) { a } }; say Foo.parse('a')	18:54
camelia	rakudo-moar 2c7692fc7: OUTPUT: «=== SORRY!=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Did not get a string but a Int␤at <tmp>:1␤------> )> }; proto token a {*}; token a:sym(0) ⏏ { a } }; say Foo.parse('a') ␤»	18:54
Kaiepi	m: grammar Foo { token TOP { <a:sym<a>> }; proto token a {*}; token a:sym<a> { a } }; say Foo.parse('a')	18:54
camelia	rakudo-moar 2c7692fc7: OUTPUT: «｢a｣␤ a => ｢a｣␤»	18:54
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Kaiepi	m: grammar Foo { token TOP { <a> :my $A = ~$<a>; { say $A } }; token a { a } }; Foo.parse('a')	18:58
camelia	rakudo-moar 2c7692fc7: OUTPUT: «Use of Nil in string context␤␤ in regex TOP at <tmp> line 1␤»	18:58
timotimo	i mean, you can have a regular method and do the parsing logic by yourself ... not sure how good our support for that is at the moment.	18:59
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TimToady	the Perl 6 grammar uses quite a few normal methods	19:03
timotimo	aye, but it's not afraid to use nqp:: ops, either	19:03
TimToady	mostly because it's written in nqp, not Perl 6	19:04
timotimo	yup	19:04
TimToady	but Perl 6 methods are no less powerful, depending on how you want to define that	19:05
timotimo	true	19:05
	i was mostly refering to whether the methods you need to create a proper return value are available in a friendly way	19:05
xinming	TimToady: yesterday, Zoffix talked about the infix operator logic, What do you think of this?	19:06
	m: class A { method test (::?CLASS:D:) { "Class A".say; }; }; multi infix:<\|\|\|> (A, %h) { A.new }; multi infix:<\|\|\|=> (\v, %h) { v = v \|\|\| %h }; ; my A $aa \|\|\|= %({}); $aa.test;	19:06
camelia	rakudo-moar 2c7692fc7: OUTPUT: «Class A␤»	19:06
xinming	here, we have to manually define the \|\|\|= thing	19:06
	since the logic for infix will try to test the .DEFINITE of the first arg.	19:06
TimToady	timotimo: making all those methods available to the current Match is part of why it's sort of a God object :)	19:06
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timotimo	bad form to have all the methods on the Match, you need a MatchFactory to make it clean	19:08
xinming	do we test the defined'ness for the first arg to optimize something?	19:08
TimToady	xinming: why are you trying to invent your own autovivification when it's built-in?	19:08
	that's just the autoviv contract of assignment at work	19:08
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xinming	TimToady: I'm just testing how I can make a infix to convert the object via % or @.	19:09
	TimToady: which part is autovivification?	19:10
TimToady	noticing it's undefined and calling a function to define it before applying the operator	19:10
	we just happen to call the 0-ary function because that's how we get an identity value for the function (if any)	19:11
	m: my $x; $x *= 42; say $x	19:12
camelia	rakudo-moar 2c7692fc7: OUTPUT: «42␤»	19:12
TimToady	oops, how'd it get to be lunchtime already?	19:13
	afk	19:13
xinming	will trouble you later then. :-)	19:14
	So, the Any will default to 0	19:15
lizmat	m: say +Any	19:15
camelia	rakudo-moar 2c7692fc7: OUTPUT: «Use of uninitialized value of type Any in numeric context␤0␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤»	19:15
xinming	I was testing that on my machine too. need to get understand how these sort out	19:16
Zoffix	xinming: the answer is "poorly"	19:18
	m: my $x; quietly say $x + 0	19:18
camelia	rakudo-moar 2c7692fc7: OUTPUT: «0␤»	19:18
Zoffix	m: my Int $x; quietly say $x + 0	19:18
camelia	rakudo-moar 2c7692fc7: OUTPUT: «Invocant of method 'Bridge' must be an object instance of type 'Int', not a type object of type 'Int'. Did you forget a '.new'?␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»	19:18
Zoffix	It's one of the holdovers from Perl 5 that should've been left out. And not it's too late to remove it.	19:19
xinming	Ok, so, you mean the undefined $x defaults to 0 in numeric context with strict mode should be removed, right?	19:21
	I agree we should remove it. :-)	19:22
	Since I just tried with something like	19:22
	m: my $x; (~$x).perl.say;	19:22
camelia	rakudo-moar 2c7692fc7: OUTPUT: «Use of uninitialized value of type Any in string context.␤Methods .^name, .perl, .gist, or .say can be used to stringify it to something meaningful.␤""␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤»	19:22
xinming	m: my $x; ~$x.perl.say;	19:22
camelia	rakudo-moar 2c7692fc7: OUTPUT: «WARNINGS for <tmp>:␤Any␤Useless use of "~" in expression "~$x.perl.say" in sink context (line 1)␤»	19:22
xinming	m: my $x; say ~$x;	19:22
camelia	rakudo-moar 2c7692fc7: OUTPUT: «Use of uninitialized value of type Any in string context.␤Methods .^name, .perl, .gist, or .say can be used to stringify it to something meaningful.␤␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤»	19:22
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xinming	m: my $x; $x ~= "abc"; say $x;	19:23
camelia	rakudo-moar 2c7692fc7: OUTPUT: «abc␤»	19:23
xinming	variables should be enforced to be initialized in perl6 to do propery op.	19:23
Zoffix	xinming: I'm not talking about your last eval, BTW.	19:23
	The last eval calls infix:<~>() (zero args) to get the inital value	19:23
	Zoffix goes to do the last prep before meeting	19:24
xinming	Ok	19:25
Zoffix	If you're not afraid to suffer ridiculous Toronto traffic, come. Today, 7pm EST. It's free. Two Perl 6 talks: regex/grammars and perf: https://www.meetup.com/Toronto-Perl-Mongers/events/rhsxwpyxkbjc/	19:25
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El_Che	Zoffix: see you, thx for opening the door	19:25
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lizmat	is it me, or do none of the TOC elements in https://docs.perl6.org/language/faq#Can_I_get_some_books_about_Perl%C2%A06? work?	19:34
	actually: https://docs.perl6.org/language/faq	19:34
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Kaiepi	timotimo, i just needed to rethink my logic a bit	19:37
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buggable	New CPAN upload: Sparrowdo-VSTS-YAML-Solution-0.0.3.tar.gz by MELEZHIK http://modules.perl6.org/dist/Sparrowdo::VSTS::YAML::Solution:cpan:MELEZHIK	20:51
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japhb	Zoffix, will your talks be recorded?	20:58
buggable	New CPAN upload: Sparrowdo-VSTS-YAML-DotNet-0.0.2.tar.gz by MELEZHIK http://modules.perl6.org/dist/Sparrowdo::VSTS::YAML::DotNet:cpan:MELEZHIK	21:01
	New CPAN upload: Sparrowdo-VSTS-YAML-MsBuild-0.0.2.tar.gz by MELEZHIK http://modules.perl6.org/dist/Sparrowdo::VSTS::YAML::MsBuild:cpan:MELEZHIK	21:01
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benjikun	Zoffix is doing talks?	21:19
	woohoo	21:19
lizmat	yup, 2: https://twitter.com/zoffix/status/1021608809087819777	21:20
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benjikun	yay	21:21
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buggable	New CPAN upload: Sparrowdo-VSTS-YAML-Solution-0.0.4.tar.gz by MELEZHIK http://modules.perl6.org/dist/Sparrowdo::VSTS::YAML::Solution:cpan:MELEZHIK	21:31
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SmokeMachine	m: class A {has $.a}; my $a = A{:42a}	21:55
camelia	rakudo-moar 08b449e1a: OUTPUT: «=== SORRY!=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Autovivifying object closures not yet implemented. Sorry.␤at <tmp>:1␤------> class A {has $.a}; my $a = A{:42a} ⏏ <EOL> ␤»	21:55
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benjiikun	m: sub a { &^b(&a) }; sub b { &^a(&b) }; b(&a);	22:20
camelia	rakudo-moar 08b449e1a: OUTPUT: «MoarVM panic: Memory allocation failed; could not allocate 12288 bytes␤»	22:20
japhb	Oooh, can't wait for Zoffix talks.	22:28
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timotimo	i hope i don't have to join the hangouts, can i just watch? %)	23:00
	i just noticed the hangouts link i clicked was from may %)	23:01
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timotimo	i do believe youtube/hangouts offers a "stream live on youtube" thing	23:01
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timotimo	right, "hangouts on air"; you can find it on youtube i think? from the "creator studio"?	23:02
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timotimo	do zoffix and the TOPMs know that? i suppose they probably do	23:03
benjiikun	where can I find it?	23:04
	I wanna watch	23:04
timotimo	i believe the TOPM twitter account will tweet it out? https://twitter.com/TOperlmongers/with_replies?lang=en	23:06
	https://www.meetup.com/Toronto-Perl-Mongers/events/rhsxwpyxkbjc/ - this is also a thing	23:07
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timotimo	https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC3xi2HEaL9W9v2fNfW61Zdg - it could perhaps show up here?	23:30
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Qwerasd	So I'm looking to take the signature of a function and turn it in to a grammar for purposes of parsing a string in to arguments for that function. Is this even possible?	23:46
timotimo	sounds a bit like what cro's router does	23:46
	if you're not scared to use EVAL, it sounds very doable	23:47
	MAIN also does something similar to this, but not using a grammar, i don't think?	23:47
benjiikun	Qwerasd example?	23:48
Qwerasd	The reason I need this is because I'm building a bot module and want the user to be able to provide a function and the module does all the work of parsing messages and gives the function everything it needs.	23:48
benjiikun	I recently did the exact same thing	23:49
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Qwerasd	Oh? Would I be able to get my hands on it?	23:49
	Like if the function had a signature of (Str $my-string, Int $my-int) the generated grammar would be like { <Str> ' ' <Int> }	23:50
	And named arguments would become flags (--someFlag someVal)	23:52
benjiikun	one second, lemme get on pc	23:53
Qwerasd	K.	23:54
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Qwerasd	I just realized how I could do what I want. Just explaining exactly what I wanted helped me think it through. I will still wait to see your implementation though. Being a total Perl 6 noob I probably am overlooking some really neat way to do it.	23:57
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