IRCloggy #perl6 2018-10-07

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	2018-10-07
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Herby_	o/	01:19
timotimo	\o	01:20
Herby_	timotimo: how goes it?	01:22
timotimo	it's a'ight	01:23
	and you?	01:23
Herby_	'bout the same	01:24
timotimo	i'm all 'bout that same, 'bout that same	01:24
	https://twitter.com/loltimo/status/1048643377301016577 - look, i made a colorful	01:26
Herby_	timotimo: awesome. what hardware you using?	01:27
timotimo	it was a piece of hardware that a german electronics online/phone store offered a couple of years ago	01:30
	it was supposed to be a picture frame, you could upload jpegs and it'd give you a slideshow	01:31
	and there was a debug mode that would let you flash updates, so people went ahead and wrote their own custom firmware	01:31
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timotimo	https://vimeo.com/97657374 - oooh this is fun	01:32
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Herby_	night!	02:02
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Zoffix	New blog post: "A Request to Larry Wall to Create a Language Name Alias for Perl 6": https://perl6.party/post/A-Request-to-Larry-Wall-to-Create-a-Language-Name-Alias-for-Perl-6	04:33
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Geth	¦ doc: b620e944e2 \| (Nacho Mas)++ \| doc/Language/math.pod6	06:32
	¦ doc: Corrects some imprecissions in the "Doing math with Perl_6" article	06:32
	¦ doc:	06:32
	¦ doc: * Disclaimer about the purported mathematical field nature of Rat, Num	06:32
	¦ doc: and Complex	06:32
synopsebot	Link: https://doc.perl6.org/language/math	06:32
Geth	¦ doc: * Rephrases the Int section to be more consistent	06:32
	¦ doc: * Matrices are not, in general, a field but a ring	06:32
	¦ doc: * Hamilton's quaternions are not a field, but an algebra over the real	06:32
	¦ doc: numbers	06:32
	¦ doc: * Claiming that ℝ is a sequence makes very little sense from a	06:32
	¦ doc: mathematical standpoint. Lacking further explanation/justification,	06:32
	¦ doc: the reference should be dropped until it can be given some meaning.	06:32
	¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/b620e944e2	06:32
	¦ doc: 1c884f9259 \| (Nacho Mas)++ \| doc/Language/math.pod6	06:32
	¦ doc: Fixes typo	06:32
	¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/1c884f9259	06:32
	¦ doc: 82e85b5e9c \| (Juan Julián Merelo Guervós)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) \| doc/Language/math.pod6	06:32
	¦ doc: Merge pull request #2362 from cronos2/master	06:33
	¦ doc:	06:33
	¦ doc: Corrects some imprecisions in the "Doing math with Perl 6" article	06:33
	¦ doc: Thanks a lot!	06:33
	¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/82e85b5e9c	06:33
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squashable6	🍕 JJ++ wrote a comment on “Check table names before creating them”: https://github.com/FCO/Red/issues/52#issuecomment-427629764	06:35
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Xliff	Squashathon still going?	06:51
jmerelo	squashable6: status	06:51
squashable6	jmerelo, 🍕🍕 SQUASHathon is in progress! The end of the event in ≈5 hours. See https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/wiki/Monthly-Bug-Squash-Day	06:51
	jmerelo, Log and stats: https://gist.github.com/7a08c9527a56fe1448985892492cd810	06:52
jmerelo	Xliff: ^^^	06:52
squashable6	🍕 JJ++ opened pull request “Reorganizes examples”: https://github.com/FCO/Test-Fuzz/pull/12	06:52
	🍕 JJ++ opened issue “Weird error in test.p6”: https://github.com/FCO/Test-Fuzz/issues/13	06:53
	🍕 JJ++ edited issue “Weird error in test.p6”: https://github.com/FCO/Test-Fuzz/issues/13	06:59
	🍕 JJ++ opened pull request “Fixes example”: https://github.com/FCO/Test-Fuzz/pull/14	07:05
Xliff	jj: Missing a few constants. Did you want standard gravity (g), electron-mass, neutron-mass and proton-mass?	07:06
	Let me know and I will write the tests and submit a PR	07:06
jmerelo	Xliff: if I remember correctly, I should have the first two, not the others. By all means, give them a try. Thanks!	07:07
Xliff	Is Constants.pm for constants not found in Parser/ ?	07:07
jmerelo	Xliff: sorry, what?	07:08
Xliff	p6-Math-Parser has a Constants.pm and another file called ebyteParse-output.txt	07:08
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Xliff	I can find some of the constants I mentioned in the 2nd file, but not in the first.	07:09
jmerelo	Xliff: not mine, I think.	07:09
Xliff	OK.	07:09
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jmerelo	Xliff: oh, yes, that was mine.	07:09
	A PR I didn't remember	07:10
	Sorry	07:10
	So, back to this "Constants.pm for constants not found in Parser/"	07:10
	Xliff: it should be in lib/Math/Constants.pm6	07:11
Xliff	OK, then. Now I feel silly, because my changes are GONE.	07:11
	TYou have universal G, but not standard g	07:11
	Electron mass, photon mass and neutron mass are not in Constants.pm	07:12
jmerelo	Xliff: then g would be great. And the rest too, I guess :-) Thanks!	07:12
Xliff	And there are a lot more listed in the second file, but not in Constants.pm	07:12
	I will regen and send a quick PR, then.	07:12
squashable6	🍕 JJ++ synchronize pull request “Add magnetic permittivit…”: https://github.com/JJ/p6-math-constants/pull/9	07:13
jmerelo	Xliff: do a pull --rebase, I'm solving conflicts with older PRs	07:13
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squashable6	🍕 JJ++ merged pull request “Add magnetic permittivit…”: https://github.com/JJ/p6-math-constants/pull/9	07:16
Xliff	OK. Done.	07:19
squashable6	🍕 JJ++ wrote a comment on “Build a URI from parts”: https://github.com/perl6-community-modules/uri/issues/27#issuecomment-427631821	07:20
	🍕 JJ++ closed pull request “Added Avogadro's number and Alpha particle mass”: https://github.com/JJ/p6-math-constants/pull/11	07:21
Xliff	uniname: c	07:23
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squashable6	🍕 JJ++ wrote a comment on “Added Euler–Mascheroni constant”: https://github.com/JJ/p6-math-constants/pull/13#issuecomment-427631996	07:23
	🍕 JJ++ closed pull request “Added Euler–Mascheroni constant”: https://github.com/JJ/p6-math-constants/pull/13	07:23
Xliff	m: c.uniname.say	07:24
camelia	rakudo-moar 2d7724f8b: OUTPUT: «=== SORRY!=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Undeclared routine:␤ c used at line 1␤␤»	07:24
Xliff	m: 'c'.uniname.say	07:24
camelia	rakudo-moar 2d7724f8b: OUTPUT: «LATIN SMALL LETTER C␤»	07:24
Xliff	m: 'c'.uniname.say	07:24
camelia	rakudo-moar 2d7724f8b: OUTPUT: «LATIN SMALL LETTER C␤»	07:24
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Xliff	m: 'c'.uniname.say	07:24
camelia	rakudo-moar 2d7724f8b: OUTPUT: «LATIN SMALL LETTER C␤»	07:24
squashable6	🍕 JJ++ wrote a comment on “Test fails with old versions of Perl 6”: https://github.com/perl6/DBIish/issues/132#issuecomment-427632197	07:28
	🍕 JJ++ closed issue “Test fails with old versions of Perl 6”: https://github.com/perl6/DBIish/issues/132	07:28
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squashable6	🍕 Xliff++ opened pull request “Adds new constants”: https://github.com/JJ/p6-math-constants/pull/17	07:32
	🍕🍕🍕 First contribution by Xliff++! ♥	07:32
Xliff	YAY!	07:32
	And with that, I will prolly depart until tomorrow.	07:32
jmerelo	Xliff: waiting for tests, will accept soon-ish. Thanks! Sleep well :-)	07:33
Xliff	Wondering if there are Perl6 bindings to GTK::Pixbuf.	07:33
	I don't see anything on modules.perl6.org	07:33
jmerelo	Xliff: probably not	07:33
Xliff	Cool. Thanks.	07:33
squashable6	🍕 JJ++ merged pull request “Adds new constants”: https://github.com/JJ/p6-math-constants/pull/17	07:40
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squashable6	🍕 JJ++ opened pull request “Adds some benchmarks”: https://github.com/timo/json_fast/pull/52	08:00
	🍕🍕🍕 First contribution by araraloren++! ♥	08:09
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jmerelo	squashable6: status	08:51
squashable6	jmerelo, 🍕🍕 SQUASHathon is in progress! The end of the event in ≈3 hours. See https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/wiki/Monthly-Bug-Squash-Day	08:51
	jmerelo, Log and stats: https://gist.github.com/afe535d4478d0dd043a08e758930b6fe	08:51
jmerelo	We're almost there!	08:51
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squashable6	🍕 jonathanstowe++ wrote a comment on “Build a URI from parts”: https://github.com/perl6-community-modules/uri/issues/27#issuecomment-427637088	08:58
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lizmat	weekly: https://6guts.wordpress.com/2018/10/06/speeding-up-object-creation/	09:25
notable6	lizmat, Noted!	09:25
squashable6	🍕 JJ++ wrote a comment on “sake help”: https://github.com/perl6/p6-sake/issues/22#issuecomment-427638735	09:27
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Geth	¦ p6-sake: JJ++ created pull request #24: Adds sake help (maybe) closes #22	09:36
	¦ p6-sake: review: https://github.com/perl6/p6-sake/pull/24	09:36
squashable6	🍕 JJ++ opened pull request “Adds sake help (maybe) closes #22”: https://github.com/perl6/p6-sake/pull/24	09:36
	🍕 JJ++ requested a review on pull request “Adds sake help (maybe) closes #22”: https://github.com/perl6/p6-sake/pull/24	09:36
jmerelo	And that's my last contribution to the Squashathon for this month :-)	09:37
squashable6	🍕 jonathanstowe++ wrote a comment on “Build a URI from parts”: https://github.com/perl6-community-modules/uri/issues/27#issuecomment-427639438	09:40
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Geth	¦ doc: 4155d5611e \| (JJ Merelo)++ \| doc/Language/5to6-nutshell.pod6	10:32
	¦ doc: Minor rewriting related to #2277	10:32
	¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/4155d5611e	10:32
	¦ doc: 13f5943c19 \| (JJ Merelo)++ \| doc/Language/operators.pod6	10:32
	¦ doc: Expanding and adding examples to circumfix []	10:32
synopsebot	Link: https://doc.perl6.org/language/5to6-nutshell	10:32
	Link: https://doc.perl6.org/language/operators	10:32
Geth	¦ doc:	10:32
	¦ doc: Which would close #2360 if everyone is happy with it. It's the best	10:32
	¦ doc: one can do meanwhile the contexts are not better explained, as	10:32
	¦ doc: requested in #1225.	10:33
	¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/13f5943c19	10:33
	¦ doc: f14525ade5 \| (JJ Merelo)++ \| doc/Language/operators.pod6	10:33
	¦ doc: Makes code	10:33
	¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/f14525ade5	10:33
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jmerelo	squashable6: status	10:38
squashable6	jmerelo, 🍕🍕 SQUASHathon is in progress! The end of the event in ≈1 hour. See https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/wiki/Monthly-Bug-Squash-Day	10:38
	jmerelo, Log and stats: https://gist.github.com/5c29463d31cc1b15eaaedaa00bf3aaae	10:38
jmerelo	Anyone around? Anyone wants to have a go at it?	10:38
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AlexDaniel	squashable6: status	11:35
squashable6	AlexDaniel, 🍕🍕 SQUASHathon is in progress! The end of the event is in 24 minutes. See https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/wiki/Monthly-Bug-Squash-Day	11:35
	AlexDaniel, Log and stats: https://gist.github.com/35a9f99acf7b5762aac8ad145535c8b7	11:35
AlexDaniel	jmerelo: go at what? :)	11:35
jmerelo	AlexDaniel: the issues, I guess	11:36
AlexDaniel	jmerelo: can you move the test to t/30-help.t ?	11:37
jmerelo	AlexDaniel: sure	11:37
AlexDaniel	jmerelo: this one I mean https://github.com/perl6/p6-sake/pull/24	11:37
squashable6	🍕 JJ++ synchronize pull request “Adds sake help (maybe) closes #22”: https://github.com/perl6/p6-sake/pull/24	11:40
AlexDaniel	jmerelo: what about testing the full output?	11:42
jmerelo	AlexDaniel: not sure about where it is	11:44
	Let me have a try	11:44
AlexDaniel	jmerelo: I mean instead of /Registered/	11:45
	just test for ｢Registered tasks: … … … … …｣ fully	11:45
	because, well, why not :)	11:45
squashable6	🍕 JJ++ synchronize pull request “Adds sake help (maybe) closes #22”: https://github.com/perl6/p6-sake/pull/24	11:46
AlexDaniel	.tell kensanata heh, we talked about it yesterday :) https://perl6.party/post/A-Request-to-Larry-Wall-to-Create-a-Language-Name-Alias-for-Perl-6	11:46
yoleaux	AlexDaniel: I'll pass your message to kensanata.	11:46
kensanata	.	11:47
yoleaux	11:46Z <AlexDaniel> kensanata: heh, we talked about it yesterday :) https://perl6.party/post/A-Request-to-Larry-Wall-to-Create-a-Language-Name-Alias-for-Perl-6	11:47
squashable6	🍕 AlexDaniel++ wrote a comment on “Adds sake help (maybe) closes #22”: https://github.com/perl6/p6-sake/pull/24#issuecomment-427647095	11:48
Geth	¦ p6-sake/master: 4 commits pushed by (JJ Merelo)++, (Aleks-Daniel Jakimenko-Aleksejev)++	11:48
	¦ p6-sake/master: 1bf3123903 \| Adds sake help (maybe) closes #22	11:48
	¦ p6-sake/master: abbecd395f \| Moving test to other place as requested by @alexdaniel	11:48
	¦ p6-sake/master: 7d5846f4a5 \| Testing full output as requested by @alexdaniel	11:48
	¦ p6-sake/master: 9588ee92cd \| Merge pull request #24 from JJ/master	11:48
	¦ p6-sake/master: review: https://github.com/perl6/p6-sake/compare/ab5ff722508a...9588ee92cd67	11:48
squashable6	🍕 AlexDaniel++ merged pull request “Adds sake help (maybe) closes #22”: https://github.com/perl6/p6-sake/pull/24	11:48
	🍕 AlexDaniel++ closed issue “sake help”: https://github.com/perl6/p6-sake/issues/22	11:48
	🍕 AlexDaniel++ unlabeled issue “sake help” (hacktoberfest): https://github.com/perl6/p6-sake/issues/22	11:48
	🍕 AlexDaniel++ wrote a comment on “sake help”: https://github.com/perl6/p6-sake/issues/22#issuecomment-427647121	11:48
	🍕 AlexDaniel++ reopened issue “sake help”: https://github.com/perl6/p6-sake/issues/22	11:48
jmerelo	squashable6: status	11:49
squashable6	jmerelo, 🍕🍕 SQUASHathon is in progress! The end of the event is in 10 minutes. See https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/wiki/Monthly-Bug-Squash-Day	11:49
	jmerelo, Log and stats: https://gist.github.com/c77da4997889ae183acba9654a0889db	11:49
	🍕 JJ++ wrote a comment on ““Sake” is overused, come up with something else”: https://github.com/perl6/p6-sake/issues/19#issuecomment-427647224	11:50
	🍕 AlexDaniel++ wrote a comment on ““Sake” is overused, come up with something else”: https://github.com/perl6/p6-sake/issues/19#issuecomment-427647566	11:56
	🍕 JJ++ wrote a comment on ““Sake” is overused, come up with something else”: https://github.com/perl6/p6-sake/issues/19#issuecomment-427647642	11:57
	🍕 AlexDaniel++ wrote a comment on ““Sake” is overused, come up with something else”: https://github.com/perl6/p6-sake/issues/19#issuecomment-427647705	11:58
	🍕 JJ++ wrote a comment on ““Sake” is overused, come up with something else”: https://github.com/perl6/p6-sake/issues/19#issuecomment-427647790	11:59
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AlexDaniel	jmerelo: that's not the most optimistic way to look at things! :)	12:03
jmerelo	AlexDaniel: I still like ake	12:03
AlexDaniel	I'm fine with ake	12:03
jmerelo	I mean, it's like looking for a parking space. You can pick whatever one you have handy, or you can go further and further away from your destination looking for an easier, or nicer, one.	12:04
AlexDaniel	but they're building a new parking lot over there! All I have to do is just wait a little bit!	12:04
	:)	12:05
jmerelo	If eventually þerl is chosen (which it will, because it's the nicest), we can always change it back to þake. But it's been sake for some period of time, it might change to ake for a limited period...	12:05
	AlexDaniel: right :-)	12:05
	AlexDaniel: ... then maybe perl6 gets a new alias, and we want to change it to whatever makes it more similar to that name... Or not, because everybody loves ake by then.	12:05
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jmerelo	squashable6: status	12:07
squashable6	jmerelo, Next SQUASHathon in 25 days and ≈21 hours (2018-11-03 UTC-12⌁UTC+14). See https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/wiki/Monthly-Bug-Squash-Day	12:07
jmerelo	and rien ne va plus. It's finished.	12:08
AlexDaniel	yeeeeeey	12:08
jmerelo	AlexDaniel: I would say it's worked pretty well, right?	12:08
	AlexDaniel: terrific work with the hooks.	12:08
	AlexDaniel: and the modules, and everything. Kudos.	12:09
pmurias	jmerelo: re þerl are you tring to be sarcastic ;)	12:09
AlexDaniel	jmerelo: thanks!	12:09
jmerelo	pmurias: no, why? I love it. It looks a little bit like Perl, uses my favorite Icelandic character, þ	12:10
AlexDaniel	squashable6: log 2018-10-06	12:10
squashable6	AlexDaniel, Log and stats: https://gist.github.com/e791b677a4f9a144590cefa6d20bc49d	12:10
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AlexDaniel	jmerelo: yea, it went well. I liked all the interactions	12:22
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jmerelo	AlexDaniel: do we have a winner?	12:29
AlexDaniel	looking at it right now	12:29
	sorted by contributor name: https://gist.github.com/AlexDaniel/bfceb2756155ab57c35b8c7c1ea7d6dd	12:30
	you have done 38% of all PRs…	12:31
jmerelo	AlexDaniel: accepted a few of them too...	12:32
	AlexDaniel: and you are first :-) Congrats	12:36
AlexDaniel	jmerelo: what do you mean? I don't thinkh having a name starting with “A” is a win?	12:37
jmerelo	Ah, OK. Alphabetical order. Too close to siesta and lunch. I'm not reading correctly...	12:37
buggable	New CPAN upload: Oddmuse-0.0.2.tar.gz by SCHROEDER http://modules.perl6.org/dist/Oddmuse6:cpan:SCHROEDER	12:37
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El_Che	Zoffix: your blog post is greatly appreciated	13:03
AlexDaniel	yes	13:04
	I found it somewhat surprising that it didn't propose some specific alias	13:06
moritz	that's a very useful tactic	13:06
AlexDaniel	but I guess there's a reason for that	13:06
El_Che	yeah	13:06
moritz	because it means you aren't conflating calling for an alias with promoting one particular alias	13:06
	+1 on that	13:06
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El_Che	is als a more fundamental question to TimToady, than 1 specific name.	13:08
	so you can be OK with an alias, but not ok with one specific one	13:08
AlexDaniel	fwiw I'd be OK with any alias as long as it doesn't have “perl” in it. I'm just too tired	13:11
kensanata	After all these years, I'm fortified!	13:12
	I started saying Perl 5 instead of Perl, for example...	13:12
AlexDaniel	kensanata: but do you write perl 6 with a non-breaking space? :P	13:14
CIAvash	How would an alias actually work? Everywhere(website, docs, excecutable, ...) mentions Perl 6 but we call it something else?	13:14
kensanata	AlexDaniel: I'm sure that's not part of the name, and no trademark registry would allow for it, so for all indents and purposes, even if you believed it to be necessary, it'd be a joke. 😛	13:15
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AlexDaniel	kensanata: I'm serious	13:16
	kensanata: it doesn't need to be part of the trademark, I'm just asking if you write it with nbsp	13:17
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kensanata	AlexDaniel: Of course not.	13:17
AlexDaniel	kensanata: because if you don't, and say you write a blog post	13:17
	kensanata: then “Perl” and “6” can be broken into separate lines	13:17
	which makes it look rather weird	13:18
	kensanata: so for the documentation and everything, we try to use nbsp	13:18
	kensanata: and we recommend others to do the same :)	13:18
kensanata	AlexDaniel: But doesn't that happen to all sorts of names? Even words are split accross lines. The question of typography is separate from the name.	13:18
	So having a convention saying please use a non-breaking space between A and B is fine, but the name still consists of A and B.	13:19
AlexDaniel	sure, yes	13:19
	but I liked your “Of course not.” answer :)	13:20
kensanata	https://framapic.org/vzeEWQ3zMu8M/q6g4tmptm084.png	13:20
	I wanted to fix it, but now I'm going to leave it, as a statement.	13:21
AlexDaniel	kensanata: do you have compose key configured?	13:22
kensanata	Of course! Caps lock it is.	13:22
AlexDaniel	I think `compose space space` should give a non-breaking space on most systems	13:22
kensanata	Yes, that's true.	13:23
AlexDaniel	.tell jmerelo I'll take a little break and then will write a page for results	13:23
yoleaux	AlexDaniel: I'll pass your message to jmerelo.	13:23
El_Che	In case TimToady is reading: please veto names with spaces in it, and everything needing a compose key :)	13:23
kensanata	Haha	13:24
AlexDaniel	El_Che: but 🦋!	13:24
kensanata	Better limit ourselves to ASCII.	13:24
AlexDaniel	:)	13:24
moritz	what about 駱駝道? </troll>	13:24
kensanata	It's name is 🦋 but we call it "butterfly". 🦋 is the language, "butterfly" is the name of the language, because we don't want to use "Perl 6" since it's associated with "Perl" which other people might not like. Also, "Perl 6" is the name for a Perl programming language and "Perl 5" is also a name for a Perl programming language, but a different one. It's more like a set, not sequence…	13:26
El_Che	Ƭ̵̬̊ the artist formely known as prince-vibe	13:26
kensanata	El_Che: I'll admit it. This is cool.	13:27
CIAvash	Has anybody thought about what happens after an alias is chosen? Are there going to be any changes to the website and docs?	13:29
lizmat	I think everybody knows my stance in this	13:30
	I would also like to have people think about what this would mean for conferences and stands at conferences	13:31
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Zoffix	lizmat: I don't remember what your stance on it is. All I recall is you saying it won't happen	13:34
yoleaux	10:13Z <brrt> Zoffix: Summation -> Summary, Numerious -> Numerous	13:34
Zoffix	lizmat: I don't see much happening with conferences, since it's not a rename.	13:35
timotimo	i'm 100% on board with getting a name that gives us the same acronym as brainfuck (re: butterfly)	13:35
El_Che	I think lizmat has a good point, Zoffix. But we'll cross that bridge if we get there	13:35
CIAvash	Because at the very least it can add a new layer of confusion, people hear name X and then see Perl 6 and wonder what that is about	13:35
Zoffix	CIAvash: I thought yes. We ban all blanket name changes and let people use whatever name they prefer when writing content. This will make one of the names superior to the other, based on the amount of use.	13:36
moritz	so, I visited a talk by Damian Conway, and the organizers told him not to use the name Perl until the end, because people might walk away	13:38
	dunno if that was warranted, but he did	13:38
El_Che	moritz: whut?	13:38
Zoffix	El_Che: someone on Facebook brought that up as well. They posted a bunch of pictures of "PerlConf" and "The Perl Conference" and said the alias would affect it. What I don't understand is why a "Perl" (as opposed to "Perl 6") conference is a perfect fit. I can't know whether there will be any Perl 6 talks at all unless I look at the program. Same would be with the alias name.	13:38
moritz	and called it "Albus", after a certain wizard, and because the language was pretty magical	13:38
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moritz	and I kinda liked it	13:38
	short, has a positive annotation, and I'm not aware of other software with that name	13:39
El_Che	Zoffix: I don't think it will be a problem, but it will be something to take into account, in lizmat's conf role	13:39
moritz	El_Che: this talk was organized by Frankfurt.pm, but in collaboration with a pretty general web development conference, and hosted by a university	13:39
Zoffix	+1 on Albus, though I'd settle for any non-offensive, non-joke name that doesn't have whitespace or numbers in it :)	13:40
moritz	it's the first proposed alias for Perl 6 that I actually liked	13:40
El_Che	I am very fond of the rakudo name, but like zoffix I am in the everything-non-silly-is-better camp	13:41
CIAvash	Zoffix: what do you mean by "We ban all blanket name changes"?	13:43
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Zoffix	CIAvash: like, no commits that just go in and change every instance of "Perl 6" to "Albus".	13:45
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Zoffix	And I guess contested spaces (e.g. title of homepage) would just be the same as how bilingual countries do signs and stuf: "The Perl 6/Albus Programming Language"	13:46
pmurias	Zoffix: re why having joint Perl 5&6 conferences makes sense, the vast majority of Perl 5 people at conferences like Perl 6 and a lot of people are part of both communities	13:48
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Zoffix	pmurias: that wasn't my question tho.	13:50
CIAvash	Zoffix: if people call it whatever they want, wouldn't that make it hard to find the content? I'm a bit confused, if the amount of the usage of a name is important, where does TimToady come in?	13:51
Zoffix	pmurias: the question was: "Why is 'The Perl Conference' a perfect fit for a language named 'Perl 6'?" And that question was made in response to a claim that creating an alias would make it hard for people to find Alias conferences. Yet, they don't seem to have trouble finding them, without the language name being featured in the conferences right now	13:52
El_Che	to be blunt, the perl5+6 communities are to small to have separated conferences	13:53
Zoffix	CIAvash: by "whatever they want" I meant either "Perl 6" or $Alias. TimToady comes in to bless some particular alias so instead of using Camelia, Rakudo, Albus, the folks who don't want to use Perl 6 name can use a single thing	13:54
El_Che	for people that use both, it's an advantage :)	13:54
pmurias	Zoffix: 'The Perl Conference' name itself doesn't tell you if it's a Perl 5 or Perl 6 or both conference	13:54
Zoffix	pmurias: yes, that's my point	13:54
	CIAvash: as for finding content, yes it's not ideal, but IMO overall still better than doing nothing, especially since currently DuckDuckGo gives you Perl 5 content when you search for "perl6 argv" for example, so it's not like search is perfect at the moment.	13:55
	CIAvash: and a pro: using alias in search will give you recent content instead of all those deeply outdated old Perl 6 articles :)	13:56
	And I'll take search problems over The Damian being told not to mention the name of the language any day :)	13:59
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pmurias	Zoffix: get well soon	13:59
	Zoffix: I understand why you want to do have an alias, but I think the choice of the alias is important, as a bad one doesn't seem like a win	14:01
moritz	I don't think anybody disagrees with that	14:02
	but it might help to decouple the discussion "do we want an alias name, assuming a good one can be found?" from the discussion "what should the alias name be?"	14:03
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kensanata	I'll just say that my interest in Perl 6 was rekindled after going to a Perl Workshop thinking it was going to be all about Perl 5...	14:07
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moritz	one of the reasons we don't want to get rid of the "Perl 6" name	14:10
pmurias	moritz: most of the proposed alias name are at best neutral (they don't have any connotations)	14:13
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pmurias	hmm, what should I use to replace the misaligned Sample selector from dartpad (https://dartpad.dartlang.org/) on 6pad?	14:31
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pmurias	or does it the select look horrible only to me?	14:37
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Geth	¦ doc: thebooort++ created pull request #2365: Improve the math page with ODE's integrators #2353	15:30
	¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/pull/2365	15:30
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Geth	¦ doc/master: 10 commits pushed by thebooort++, (Juan Julián Merelo Guervós)++	15:59
	¦ doc/master: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/compare/f14525ade53c...2edd1d89613a	15:59
	¦ doc: 603ff5ca43 \| (JJ Merelo)++ \| doc/Language/math.pod6	16:07
	¦ doc: Fixes formatting errors	16:07
	¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/603ff5ca43	16:07
	¦ doc: 90ce9a391d \| (JJ Merelo)++ \| doc/Language/math.pod6	16:07
	¦ doc: Some fixes to pass tests	16:07
synopsebot	Link: https://doc.perl6.org/language/math	16:07
Geth	¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/90ce9a391d	16:07
jmerelo	Well...	16:15
yoleaux	13:23Z <AlexDaniel> jmerelo: I'll take a little break and then will write a page for results	16:15
jmerelo	.tell AlexDaniel thanks!	16:15
yoleaux	jmerelo: I'll pass your message to AlexDaniel.	16:15
shmup	exporting a class, or rather making a class available to other modules.. i'm not grokin it yet	16:17
SmokeMachine	jmerelo: has you seen that Red converts ‘-‘ on model’s name to ‘_’ on table’s name?	16:18
shmup	nvm, i solved it	16:19
jmerelo	SmokeMachine: but only if you set the name, right?	16:19
	SmokeMachine: I remember I did something like model Commit-whatever (because commit was reserved) and it bailed out.	16:19
SmokeMachine	Shouldn’t...	16:20
	jmerelo: https://github.com/FCO/Red/blob/master/lib/MetamodelX/Red/Model.pm6#L34	16:24
jmerelo	SmokeMachine: that should do it, right...	16:25
	Let me check anyway	16:25
SmokeMachine	And I’m sorry, I’m not with my computer yet...	16:26
jmerelo	SmokeMachine: no problem	16:27
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jdv79_	i dont get the name thing. its still a perl. as soon as someone see sigils theyll know. why try to obfu it...	16:59
timotimo	could also be basic	17:00
	or php	17:00
jdv79_	seems futile. everything has perl in it. modules.perl6, the irc chan names, the subreddit, etc...	17:02
	like i said. i dont get it;)	17:02
AlexDaniel	jdv79_: it depends, some people indeed see no problem with it. However, have you tried talking to somebody about perl 6?	17:09
	was there any confusion?	17:09
jdv79_	no	17:10
	its also in the code, the lang braid, tge gh artifacts, etc.	17:10
AlexDaniel	there was no confusion or you don't talk about perl 6?	17:10
jdv79_	i talk of perl6 all the time. no confusion.	17:11
AlexDaniel	so let me get this straight	17:11
jdv79_	cause at the outset i say perl as you know it is p5. im talking about p6.	17:11
	any confusion is handled up front	17:12
	AlexDaniel shrugs	17:14
AlexDaniel	that doesn't work for me	17:14
	because in the end I'm the “perl guy” and stuff like that	17:14
lizmat	why can't you be the "rakudo" guy ?	17:15
jdv79_	how would you explain to someone the compiler calks this lang in the braid Perl6 but you call it foobar?	17:15
AlexDaniel	yes I'll take any alias once it is there	17:15
lizmat	AlexDaniel: why couldn't you be the "rakudo" guy now ?	17:16
AlexDaniel	because rakudo is a compiler, not the language	17:16
lizmat	so?	17:17
AlexDaniel	well, you see, I can play all kinds of games in the attempt to work around the confusion	17:18
	but clarity is one of my goals when I speak	17:18
	if I'm talking about the language, I want to call the language by its name	17:18
	substituting it with the name of the compiler… is just weird	17:19
lizmat	is it? I know	17:19
AlexDaniel	so the person will go search for language rakudo and there's no language rakudo, it's perl 6	17:19
	ah-ha, perl! OK now it's clear. Hehe	17:19
lizmat	plenty of people in the car business that are "ford" or "citroën" or "peugeot" or "fiat" people	17:19
	they're all car mechanics	17:20
	but they identify with the brand they know best	17:20
	and I do think you can apply such an analogy to Perl 6 / Rakudo / Fanlang / Niecza	17:21
AlexDaniel	ehhh… I don't know, maybe you're right	17:21
lizmat	"rakudo" 4 / 5 hits mention Perl 6 for me on google	17:22
	actually 5/5	17:22
	at DDG its 4/5	17:22
AlexDaniel	well if on November 1st I'm told that my favorite programming language is rakudo, I'm fine with that. I'll use it	17:23
lizmat	I'm telling you would be fine to use that now already :-)	17:23
	Google / DDG will back you up that you're not fantasising	17:24
AlexDaniel	I don't like muddying the distinction between the language and the compiler, not until Nov 1st at least…	17:24
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nige	moritz - I've added 'albus' to the list of collected sub-brands - http://nigelhamilton.com/perl-branding-proposal.html	17:26
	are you OK with that?	17:26
timotimo	well, it wasn't his, right?	17:34
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El_Che	I get AlexDaniel's point about talking with other people. I have exactly the same experience.	17:36
	(About the rakudo name, I love it and I don't care about the lang/compiler collision if it means we get a good name)	17:37
	I am introducing perl6 in production in small CI/containers related tasks, but I refer the code as Rakudo and not Perl 6. The devops code is mostly Go, and the Perl 5 code some teams use is very old school Perl 5.	17:39
ugexe	I'm a software engineer. I've work as one for many years. I've work with many other software engineers. I've always been the Perl6 guy at the last 4 places I've worked ( before 6.c ). There has never in my professional career been any confusion between Perl and Perl6 with any of my colleagues. This has involved me teaching colleagues, invitings others such as jnthn to talk with colleagues, raising money from	17:39
yoleaux	3 Dec 2017 07:47Z <araraloren> ugexe: I setup a new linux(fedora 25), after install rakudo-pkg. It failed when I run `install-zef-as-user.p6` ^^	17:39
	3 Dec 2017 07:47Z <araraloren> ugexe: sorry, fedora 26	17:39
ugexe	colleagues to go towards Perl6 advancements ( Sync sockets, atomic operations, Cro OpenAPI tooling ).	17:39
yoleaux	4 Jan 2018 16:17Z <tyil> ugexe: Do you want me to close the ticket I created, as its a dupe of #157	17:39
	20 Jul 2018 16:10Z <stmuk> ugexe: I don't seem to be able to install zef on windows	17:39
ugexe	The Perl name has never been a deteriment to any of these accomplishments, and if anything contributed towards these things happening at all. I think the seconds long snippet of larry mentioning the possiblity of an alias have been overblown. Why aren't alias backers out there testing their theory and emulating the Damian talk and making up a name and mentioning it at the end? But I'm not a marketer, i'm a	17:39
	software engineer, so maybe it doesn't matter what I think. Maybe making the language easier for marketers to market is worth looking like amateur hour.	17:39
timotimo	ugexe: sorry for being so cold on your speed improvements pullrequest for JSON::Fast; i'm hoping to give it another look-over soon, though i'm still not quite sure if i want parallelization to take place	17:41
El_Che	.tell araraloren ping me about the rakudo-pkg problem so we can have a look. Feel free to raise an issue in github	17:41
yoleaux	El_Che: I'll pass your message to araraloren.	17:41
ugexe	timotimo: i have no speed improvement PR. it was something about not turning Version.new(...) into (0,0) or something	17:42
	the PR itself is probably no good, but the problem behind it is probably worth thinking on	17:42
El_Che	ugexe: it's interesting to see how your experience differs	17:43
shmup	am i severely misundstanding looping over the elements of an array: http://ix.io/1oB4/perl6	17:43
	god i hate the guy saying that instagram killed photography	17:46
	mistell :)	17:46
AlexDaniel	shmup: it probably needs to be @$things or something like that	17:46
tobs	m: my $array = [1..4]; for $array -> $elt { say $elt }	17:47
camelia	rakudo-moar 8bb34ff07: OUTPUT: «[1 2 3 4]␤»	17:47
tobs	m: my @array = [1..4]; for @array -> $elt { say $elt }	17:47
camelia	rakudo-moar 8bb34ff07: OUTPUT: «1␤2␤3␤4␤»	17:47
AlexDaniel	↑ that	17:47
tobs	m: my $array = [1..4]; for @$array -> $elt { say $elt } # shmup: or what AlexDaniel said	17:47
camelia	rakudo-moar 8bb34ff07: OUTPUT: «1␤2␤3␤4␤»	17:47
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tobs	shmup: a scalar $array is a single thing, but it can often be interpreted as a single-element list, which is what happens in the first snippet under `for`.	17:48
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lizmat	.tell Zoffix an elaboration about my stance: https://www.reddit.com/r/perl6/comments/9m2k6l/a_request_to_larry_wall_to_create_a_language_name/e7cdgih/	17:50
yoleaux	lizmat: I'll pass your message to Zoffix.	17:50
El_Che	lizmat: oh, first point is how civil wars start :)	17:50
lizmat	it is how it is	17:51
shmup	ah hah AlexDaniel and tobs	17:52
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shmup	what ya think about http://ix.io/1oB6	18:01
	what ya think about http://ix.io/1oB6/perl6	18:01
	my brain can do this prob, let me Think	18:02
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AlexDaniel	timotimo: ↑ maybe you can answer, because I'm always confused by this also :)	18:08
	shmup: but I think it can be something like @(get-json('/home/jared/src/community/events.json')<docs><docs>) in case of @b	18:10
shmup	yeah ok I have it now, hm, I'll have to figure out my misunderstanding more	18:12
	but that does now map over the result correctly, thanks AlexDaniel	18:12
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davidp	anybody using ncurses ??	18:17
tobs	davidp: not yet, but I'd like to soon, fwiw.	18:21
davidp	there is a module, iam new to perl 6, how to know if it is safe for use please ?	18:22
tobs	I have to say Curses::UI:from<Perl5> looks more convenient than what is in the p6 ecosystem. I haven't tried it out yet, though.	18:22
CIAvash	shmup: It means the json value is an item so you need to decontainerize it. In this case you can also use the list method on it. https://docs.perl6.org/routine/%3C%3E	18:23
tobs	davidp: hmm, "safe to use", I don't know. If you're not worried that it deletes all your files when you touch it or something like that, the modules has an example directory.	18:24
	You can check that out, run some of the examples and see if it fits.	18:24
davidp	thanks i know that lib	18:25
shmup	love it, cool/thanks CIAvash	18:25
timotimo	yeah, JSON::Fast is a bit too container-happy	18:32
	i want to put out a new version in the future that breaks compatibility by not putting everything in containers	18:32
shmup	lol	18:32
	mostly I am just brand spanking new to perl6, and not that it's too important at all, only used perl5 for irssi related things	18:32
	i have a tight feedback loop but i'm relying on it too much instead of just reading more/being patient	18:33
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lizmat	weekly: https://twitter.com/nxadm/status/1049003572694831105	18:55
notable6	lizmat, Noted!	18:55
rindolf	hi all	19:03
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lizmat	weekly: http://pessim50.ucoz.ru/index/perl6_jazyk_programmirovanija_rukovodstvo/0-26	19:35
notable6	lizmat, Noted!	19:35
lizmat	AlexDaniel Zoffix is that ^^ newsworthy or not?	19:36
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moritz	looks like an 80 page perl 6 tutorial to me	19:49
lizmat	yeah, that as well to me... except apart from the Perl 6 expressions, I don't get it :-)	19:51
jnthn	Yes, looks like a Perl 6 introduction tutorial :)	19:54
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AlexDaniel	lizmat: where did you find that? I can't figure out who is the author	19:59
lizmat	https://twitter.com/VictorBorisov3/status/1049017050683920387	19:59
CIAvash	m: dd Hash[Int].new('a', 'b')	20:00
camelia	rakudo-moar 8bb34ff07: OUTPUT: «Hash[Int] element = (my Int % = :a("b"))␤»	20:00
CIAvash	What does that mean?	20:00
AlexDaniel	lizmat: yes definitely notable	20:01
lizmat	hmmm	20:01
	CIAvash: that looks like a bug	20:01
	:a<b> should not be allowed	20:01
AlexDaniel	lizmat: it's a full-blown introduction to perl 6, written in proper Russian. I wonder what their inspiration was (were they looking at docs.perl6.org or something else?), but so far it looks original… which makes me wonder why didn't they publish it as a book or something like that	20:02
lizmat	m: my Int %h = "a", "b" # it should give this	20:02
camelia	rakudo-moar 8bb34ff07: OUTPUT: «Type check failed in assignment to %h; expected Int but got Str ("b")␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»	20:02
	lizmat likes Perl 6 stuff coming from unexpected corners of the world!	20:03
CIAvash	Yeah, I was expecting that too	20:03
lizmat	CIAvash: could you please create an issue for that ?	20:03
AlexDaniel	I'd love to provide feedback for that, though	20:05
	for example they recommend .pl extension, which we nowadays avoid	20:05
CIAvash	There are other issues I haven't created yet as well! Maybe tomorrow	20:05
AlexDaniel	also nowhere in the file it talks about `spurt` or `slurp` and instead recommends `open`	20:06
	it's amazing, really. 82 pages of effort and no name of the author in the document	20:09
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Zoffix	lizmat: I find it ironic that the first sentence of that tutorial talks about the bad name :)	20:10
yoleaux	17:50Z <lizmat> Zoffix: an elaboration about my stance: https://www.reddit.com/r/perl6/comments/9m2k6l/a_request_to_larry_wall_to_create_a_language_name/e7cdgih/	20:10
AlexDaniel	hehe yeah	20:10
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Zoffix	lizmat: ah, ok, now I remember. Thanks	20:11
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AlexDaniel	lizmat: oh ok, that tweet is from the author of that website	20:13
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mniip	AlexDaniel, that document looks like something outta msword	20:31
AlexDaniel	mniip: it was done in libreoffice, .odt file is also provided	20:32
mniip	I see. Still questionable choice for a 80 page book	20:33
	"неизменяемость" is written with no space :/	20:35
	lmao he spelled haskell "Hascell"	20:39
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Zoffix	Who cares? Man, we find the first tutorial who wasn't made by the regulars in this channel and you immediatelly proceed to rip it a new asshole because the author missed a space in "неизменяемость" (which I'm pretty sure is correct actually)?	20:40
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Zoffix	It seems the default mode people operate in these days is to shit on anything they can.	20:41
AlexDaniel	Zoffix: fwiw it's other way around, it's written with space in the book (sometimes)	20:41
	but yeah I couldn't care less about formatting and grammar	20:41
	the guide is very clear and nice	20:42
timotimo	mniip doesn't seem like a regular to me?	20:42
	have i seen you before?	20:43
mniip	Zoffix, I think you're overexaggerating the intenstity of me "shittin on anything I can"	20:43
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AlexDaniel	timotimo: their point is that the book was written but somebody else	20:43
timotimo	oh, i got that	20:44
AlexDaniel	or guide, whatever you call that	20:44
mniip	I did not say it's garbage, just pointed out some obvious issues with it	20:44
AlexDaniel	btw, can we link it from somewhere?	20:44
timotimo	i just meant it doesn't seem to be an example of "what #perl6 people usually do"	20:44
AlexDaniel	like maybe https://perl6.org/resources/ ?	20:44
	“Perl 6 from Other Languages”… Haskell, Python, Ruby, Russian :)	20:45
mniip	timotimo, I've been idling around for a while, if that counts	20:49
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timotimo	to me "lmao he spelled …" sounded a little mean towards the author; i would have probably said something like "lmao, 'hascell' is a fun way to spell haskell" instead	20:50
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mniip	understandable	20:52
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mniip	really did not intend to hurt anyone's feelings, sorry if I did	20:53
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timotimo	though zof also overreacted i feel like	20:53
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AlexDaniel	Zoffix: by the way, I remember there was someone asking for a review of their perl 6 tutorial in Russian, or something like that. Was it the same author?	20:55
	mniip . o O ( I'm no regular, I'm literally context-free )	20:56
timotimo	oh, good one	20:58
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uzl	Hello, #perl6!	21:30
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uzl	I'm reading https://docs.perl6.org/type/Signature and there are multiple sentences where one finds 'default default'. The sentences seem to make sense with only one 'default' so I'm wondering if it's a just a typo or some meaning behind it.	21:32
timotimo	default default actually makes sense in signatures	21:34
	if you have $foo = 5, then 5 is the default for $foo, but if you just use $foo? you'll get the default default instead	21:34
	though it'd surely be helpful - especially for non-native speakers - to point it out a little more clearly?	21:35
	the first occurence of "default default" seems to explain what that means, without explaining explicitly that a "default default" is A Thing™	21:36
uzl	yeah, it makes after you explained but at first sight it's like 'What?'.	21:36
mniip	"implicit default" perhaps	21:39
timotimo	i think that'd be an improvement	21:39
Geth	¦ doc/master: 4 commits pushed by Coke++	21:43
	¦ doc/master: bcf7232a6b \| fix typo in comment	21:43
	¦ doc/master: 02337abc8f \| whitespace	21:43
	¦ doc/master: 8dc7704786 \| skip more non-compiling code snippets	21:43
	¦ doc/master: 70d19dbac8 \| fix typo	21:43
	¦ doc/master: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/compare/90ce9a391d76...70d19dbac8b1	21:43
geekosaur	someone might make the same change to the haskell language report, for that matter	21:45
Geth	¦ doc: uzluisf++ created pull request #2366: Rephase sentence and fix minor typo	21:47
	¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/pull/2366	21:47
mniip	geekosaur, are you talking about default default or hascell?	21:48
geekosaur	"default default" (look at the report's definition of the "default" declaration)	21:48
mniip	I don't see a "default default" in there	21:50
	only "If no default declaration is given in a module then it assumed to be: ..."	21:50
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azawawi	hi	22:43
	👋	22:44
	As promised earlier https://github.com/azawawi/ide-perl6 (atom lang client + perl6 lang server) ... syntax checking is online :)	22:45
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uzl	.tell AlexDaniel Not directly related with a Russian tutorial but I've been working in a Spanish translation of	23:12
yoleaux	uzl: I'll pass your message to AlexDaniel.	23:12
uzl	.tell AlexDaniel 'Think Perl 6' and a while back I asked for a (community?) review of the translation. Lately	23:12
yoleaux	uzl: I'll pass your message to AlexDaniel.	23:12
uzl	.tell AlexDaniel I've been working with the index terms which I didn't take of while translating the main content.	23:13
yoleaux	uzl: I'll pass your message to AlexDaniel.	23:13
AlexDaniel	.	23:13
yoleaux	23:13Z <uzl> AlexDaniel: I've been working with the index terms which I didn't take of while translating the main content.	23:13
AlexDaniel	I'm here! :)	23:13
	uzl: Spanish translation! Have you talked to jmerelo?	23:13
uzl	Oh, didn't notice it! ;)	23:13
	AlexDaniel: I don't think so. Well, at least not specifically about a review.	23:17
AlexDaniel	.tell jmerelo by any chance are you interested in this? http://colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_log/perl6?date=2018-10-07#l884	23:18
yoleaux	AlexDaniel: I'll pass your message to jmerelo.	23:18
AlexDaniel	uzl: is it public, by the way? Your translation I mean	23:19
timotimo	jnthn: i'm not sure i understand "there's still lots more to be had. which is a good job, since ..."; like, the "a good job" part?	23:19
uzl	AlexDaniel: https://uzluisf.gitlab.io/piensaperl6/ <- It has a link to the gitlab repo.	23:20
AlexDaniel	awesome, in LaTeX! jmerelo is the right person :)	23:22
	as long as they have time of course	23:22
uzl	That's what I realized. JJ might not have the spare time to do so.	23:23
	But I guess there's not rush.	23:24
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uzl	Anyway...until later.	23:25
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timotimo	.tell jnthn i'm not sure i understand "there's still lots more to be had. which is a good job, since ..."; like, the "a good job" part?	23:29
yoleaux	timotimo: I'll pass your message to jnthn.	23:29
k-man	morning	23:30
timotimo	greetings k-man	23:30
k-man	p14 of learning perl6 says i can get info on perl6 language variables by doing "p6doc language/variables"	23:30
	but its not found oh my system	23:30
	ooh	23:31
	maybe because i didn't source my .bashrc in that term	23:31
	nope, that's not it	23:31
	hi timotimo	23:31
	hmmm... p6doc should have a document about p6doc imho	23:34
	p6doc on its own seems to work	23:35
timotimo	you may not yet have p6doc installed	23:36
k-man	i do have it, it works	23:36
timotimo	oh!	23:36
k-man	'p6doc variables' seems to find a document	23:36
	i think its a typo or outdated info in the book	23:37
timotimo	learing perl6 is really new, though	23:37
k-man	yeah	23:37
	i know	23:38
timotimo	i haven't used the p6doc tool in a long long time	23:38
	all the perl6 doc stuff is on the doc.perl6.org site, too, if that helps :\	23:38
k-man	timotimo, yeah, i found it	23:41
	just wanted to be sure it wasn't me doing it wrong, and more likely an error in the book	23:41
	i sent an errata note	23:41
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[Coke]	k-man++	23:47
k-man	thanks [Coke]!	23:48
	i found 2 errata and I'm only up to p14 :(	23:49
	should have done this before it was printed	23:49
ugexe	re perl 5&6 having conferences/summits split up -- how many conferences do you attend? because i really hope that such an argument is coming from attendees. or donating for p6 developers to go to PTS	23:56
	or do we just expect this shit to figure itself out?	23:58

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