IRCloggy #perl6 2018-10-08

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	2018-10-08
ugexe	its utterly embarrassing, which i say this as someone who has made money using these "impossible to promote" tools	00:06
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Zoffix	ugexe: why should the conferences split up?	00:08
ugexe	why are they paired up in the first place?	00:08
Zoffix	Good question.	00:08
ugexe	so you can see the writing on the wall	00:09
	that this nonsense leads to	00:09
Zoffix	ugexe: no, I don't.	00:09
ugexe	of course you don't	00:10
Zoffix	ugexe: throwing around "shit" and "nonsense" doesn't help the actual fact that Damian Conway was asked not to mention the name of the language.	00:10
	ugexe: what's your problem? Can you describe it directly instead of metaphors about walls?	00:11
ugexe	"thanks" for "pointing" this out	00:11
k-man	are there p5 devs who object to p6 being included in the perl confs?	00:11
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Zoffix	ugexe: you're welcome.	00:12
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ugexe	i'm sure one of your personalities is	00:13
Zoffix	is what? Your problem?	00:13
[Coke]	k-man: not that I noticed at the last TPC in utah.	00:13
	gentlemen: this isn't helping.	00:14
Zoffix	I don't know why any discussions occurring right now at all. We had a year and a half for all the discussions. It's now up to TimToady to make an executive ruling.	00:14
[Coke]	ugexe: Zoffix asked if you could explain your point more directly. I don't think that's unreasonable; but if you don't want to you, then don't. no need to drag out a conversation you don't want to have.	00:15
ugexe	yeah why should anyone discuss things that affect their lively hood	00:15
	coke this isn't the first time i've explained my position	00:15
	like ive mentioend before -- many of us are tired of arguing our points on this and just ignored it	00:15
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Zoffix	ugexe: exactly! You ignored it! And those who were trying to solve the problem didn't and now are proceeding with actions announced well in advance, and all of a sudden you don't want to ignore the issue anymore and wish to discuss it	00:16
ugexe	you are seriously complaining that I am objecting to this	00:17
	that explains enough to me	00:17
Zoffix	ugexe: more cryptic bullshit.	00:17
ugexe	more unstable bullshit	00:17
Zoffix	ugexe: I'm complaining that instead of participating in dialogue, you ignored it.	00:17
ugexe	i did participate. i didnt participate in EVERY SINGLE THREAD on it	00:18
Zoffix	ugexe: and now when the dialog that did happen was summarized, you complain that your point wasn't the dominant one.	00:18
ugexe	give it a ret	00:19
	rest	00:19
Zoffix	Take your own advice.	00:19
ugexe	you heard it here. shut up ugexe and let me push my view unchallenged.	00:20
Zoffix	haha	00:20
	Yeah, and yet I'm the "unstable" one.	00:21
	You had a year and a half to challenge everything.	00:22
	Instead you decided to self-exhile.	00:22
ugexe	I did challenge everything. And now I'm still here doing so.	00:22
Zoffix	ugexe: your challenge is not very convincing	00:23
ugexe	how many times have you self-exhiled, including removing all your perl6 code from the ecosystem? made a big show of it	00:23
	the difference is i just left irc	00:23
Zoffix	ugexe: a couple. But I'm not the one complaining that my point of view was not included somewhere.	00:24
ugexe	if that is how you are interpreting me voicing my opinion here, its incorrect	00:26
Zoffix	ugexe: Why not write a blog post similar to mine, except one that demonstrates why creation of the alias is more detrimental than the current situation (such as the Damian's incident)?	00:27
	It'd be more productive than calling people's ideas shit and me unstable.	00:27
ugexe	that pretty patronizing after the conversation we just had	00:27
Zoffix	ugexe: you seem to be just looking for a fight.	00:28
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ugexe	yeah i self exhiled and popped in here all of a sudden looking to fight	00:29
	because there is no way there could be any legitimacy to what i've said	00:29
perlawhirl	hi perlers... I'm consistently getting a 'JIT ERROR: Negative offset for dynamic label 33' in some code... what would be the best way to troubleshoot the cause?	00:35
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Kaiepi	i've never encountered a panic caused by libuv while testing before	00:44
	guess there's always a first	00:44
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perlawhirl	I'm on Centos 6. As it uses an older gcc/libc, I tend to hit bugs most users on more modern OS's do not :D	00:51
AlexDaniel	perlawhirl: the last JIT ERROR I saw was golfed to one line, so maybe try golfing it	00:52
	perlawhirl: also please file a ticket	00:52
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perlawhirl	i've tried golfing it a little... but it occurs when I'm creating a bunch of objects using my module Net::Netmask. The object creation doesn't seem to do anything special, but i'll see if i can whittle it down to a root cause, and will raise a ticket	00:53
Kaiepi	if you're a masochist you could compile gcc8 yourself	00:54
	trust me it takes hours	00:54
AlexDaniel	perlawhirl: you can file a ticket without a golf, and provide a golf later when you have it	00:55
	for example, if you have steps to reproduce, that is helpful too	00:56
MasterDuke	perlawhirl: i believe brrt fixed one cause of those kinds of errors recently, are you on HEAD? i think there have been some other reports after his fix, but am not 100% sure	01:04
perlawhirl	yeah, i rebuilt from HEAD this morning after I saw lizmat's commit that referenced 'bit shift JIT' hoping it would fix the issue	01:15
	but still occuring	01:15
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b2gills	There was a recent change that caused (nearly) silent errors to stop being so silent	01:22
	m: my $a = ('a' x 200).comb; $a ~~ s:g/<ws>//	01:23
camelia	rakudo-moar 8bb34ff07: OUTPUT: «JIT ERROR: Negative offset for dynamic label 32␤»	01:23
AlexDaniel	b2gills: ouch, is this one ticketed?	01:23
b2gills	That was on #perl6-dev	01:23
AlexDaniel	b2gills: thanks, I filed a ticket	01:30
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timotimo	i do believe we've already rootcaused it and a fix is close to being committed	01:34
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Kaiepi	supplies are supposed to be able to have multiple taps open at the same time right?	02:02
AlexDaniel	notable: Another SQUASHathon happened \o/. The winner is announced here: https://github.com/perl6/ecosystem/wiki/SQUASHathon#results	02:13
notable6	AlexDaniel, Noted!	02:13
AlexDaniel	I really liked the interactions during the squashathon. The idea of going to someone's repo and helping out is great	02:19
	but it was hard, these repos didn't have enough LHFs I think	02:19
	next month doc repo, should be somewhat easier I think	02:20
	and I'm accepting ideas for December! :)	02:20
	many interesting things can be done	02:22
	there's advent calendar, v6.d release, etc.	02:23
SmokeMachine	LHF?	02:25
AlexDaniel	SmokeMachine: low-hanging fruit – tickets that are easy to resolve	02:25
	nowadays labeled with `good first issue` or `easy to resolve` labels on github	02:25
	LHF was previously used on RT	02:25
	and we switched from RT to github issues some time ago	02:26
Geth	¦ doc: 757bdf9af6 \| (Tom Browder)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) \| doc/Language/math.pod6	02:26
	¦ doc: fix typos	02:26
	¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/757bdf9af6	02:26
synopsebot	Link: https://doc.perl6.org/language/math	02:26
tbrowder__	congrats to JJ!	02:28
	aka jmerelo	02:28
Geth	¦ mu: e1b1fa3519 \| (Aleks-Daniel Jakimenko-Aleksejev)++ \| misc/perl6advent-2018/schedule	02:29
	¦ mu: Start Advent 2018 Schedule	02:29
	¦ mu: review: https://github.com/perl6/mu/commit/e1b1fa3519	02:29
SmokeMachine	AlexDaniel: thanks	02:31
Geth	¦ mu: 35ad0df630 \| (Zoffix Znet)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) \| misc/perl6advent-2018/schedule	02:35
	¦ mu: Claim 1st	02:35
	¦ mu: review: https://github.com/perl6/mu/commit/35ad0df630	02:35
SmokeMachine	.tell jmerelo congratulations for The SQUASHathon! And thanks for helping Red!	02:35
yoleaux	SmokeMachine: I'll pass your message to jmerelo.	02:35
Xliff	\o	02:37
	What's the best way to write roles where one rule depends on the attributes of another?	02:37
	When I attempt to write the dependent one with no attributes and make it "also does Role1", it complains that the attribute is not define.	02:38
	If I define the attribute in two roles, it complains that there are duplicate roles when I assign the dependent role to an object.	02:38
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Geth	¦ mu: eb0dce5e78 \| (Zoffix Znet)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) \| misc/perl6advent-2018/schedule	02:40
	¦ mu: reword title	02:40
	¦ mu: review: https://github.com/perl6/mu/commit/eb0dce5e78	02:40
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Xliff	\0	04:49
	How do you schedule an event to run every x ticks?	04:49
moritz	there's a Supply method for that, iirc	05:13
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Geth	¦ doc: 651d20bff4 \| (Luis F. Uceta)++ \| doc/Language/functions.pod6	05:15
	¦ doc: Rephrase sentence and add small example	05:15
	¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/651d20bff4	05:15
	¦ doc: ef85fe00b7 \| (Luis F. Uceta)++ \| doc/Type/Signature.pod6	05:15
	¦ doc: Add few minor fixes.	05:15
synopsebot	Link: https://doc.perl6.org/language/functions	05:15
	Link: https://doc.perl6.org/type/Signature	05:15
Geth	¦ doc:	05:15
	¦ doc: Remove I<> that wasn't being rendered inside C<>, fix a typo, etc.	05:15
	¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/ef85fe00b7	05:15
	¦ doc: f759c7d56d \| (Juan Julián Merelo Guervós)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) \| 2 files	05:15
	¦ doc: Merge pull request #2366 from uzluisf/master	05:15
	¦ doc:	05:15
	¦ doc: Rephase sentence and fix minor typo	05:15
	¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/f759c7d56d	05:15
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jmerelo	Just in case someone is in the mood for answering SO questions: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/52696276/exporting-regexes-from-grammars	06:07
yoleaux	7 Oct 2018 23:18Z <AlexDaniel> jmerelo: by any chance are you interested in this? http://colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_log/perl6?date=2018-10-07#l884	06:07
	02:35Z <SmokeMachine> jmerelo: congratulations for The SQUASHathon! And thanks for helping Red!	06:07
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jmerelo	.tell SmokeMachine thanks! Congratulations for what, exactly?	06:08
yoleaux	jmerelo: I'll pass your message to SmokeMachine.	06:08
jmerelo	.tell uzl, AlexDaniel: I don't have much time for translations. There's a small, but enthusiastic, Perl Spanish translation team that would probably be willing to help, anyway.	06:09
yoleaux	jmerelo: What kind of a name is "uzl,"?!	06:09
jmerelo	.tell uzl: I don't have much time for translations. There's a small, but enthusiastic, Perl Spanish translation team that would probably be willing to help, anyway.	06:09
yoleaux	jmerelo: What kind of a name is "uzl:"?!	06:09
jmerelo	.tell uzl I don't have much time for translations. There's a small, but enthusiastic, Perl Spanish translation team that would probably be willing to help, anyway.	06:09
yoleaux	jmerelo: I'll pass your message to uzl.	06:09
jmerelo	.tell uzl I can take a look anyway.	06:10
yoleaux	jmerelo: I'll pass your message to uzl.	06:10
jmerelo	.tell SmokeMachine I got the Camelia! Woohooo! I didn't know...	06:11
yoleaux	jmerelo: I'll pass your message to SmokeMachine.	06:11
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Xliff	.tell jmerelo At a guess, you are missing what would be self, since as a method, that is always passed first.	07:19
yoleaux	Xliff: I'll pass your message to jmerelo.	07:19
Xliff	.tell jmerelo Regarding your SO question re: grammars.	07:20
yoleaux	Xliff: I'll pass your message to jmerelo.	07:20
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ToddAndMargo	Hi All! Question: I am using `read` to read the first 400 bytes of a unknown file (could be a binary file). Once I have these 400 bytes in a variable of type "Buf", how do I turn that variable into something (a string?) that will allow me to use "contains" to search for patterns of characters?	07:49
	p6 'my $fh=open "/home/linuxutil/To", :r; my Buf $f = $fh.read( 400 ); $fh.close; my $g=$f.Stringy; say so $g.contains( chr(0) );' Cannot use a Buf as a string, but you called the Stringy method on it in block <unit> at -e line 1	07:50
buggable	New CPAN upload: File-XML-DMARC-Google-0.1.0.tar.gz by TYIL https://cpan.metacpan.org/authors/id/T/TY/TYIL/Perl6/File-XML-DMARC-Google-0.1.0.tar.gz	07:50
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moritz	ToddAndMargo: you have to decode it	08:01
	ToddAndMargo: and you can use Latin-1 as the encoding	08:02
ToddAndMargo	Can you point me to the directions?	08:04
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ToddAndMargo	I just want to dig trouhg the bytes to see if it contains any 0H000's	08:04
moritz	https://docs.perl6.org/type/Buf.html	08:04
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ToddAndMargo	buf8 Buf[uint8] ?	08:05
	0H00 added an extra zero	08:07
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ToddAndMargo	I will ask on the mailing list.	08:17
pmurias	Zoffix: two big problems behind an official alias are that it creates confusion (for people that don't realize that it's really Perl 6) and creates resentment in some Perl 5 programmers (as it plays into the Perl 5 brand is dead sentiment)	08:20
buggable	New CPAN upload: File-Zip-0.1.1.tar.gz by TYIL https://cpan.metacpan.org/authors/id/T/TY/TYIL/Perl6/File-Zip-0.1.1.tar.gz	08:20
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Xliff	m: "hello".encode.say	08:28
camelia	rakudo-moar 8bb34ff07: OUTPUT: «utf8:0x<68 65 6C 6C 6F>␤»	08:28
Xliff	m: "hello\0\0".encode.decode('utf8').contains( chr(0) )	08:29
camelia	rakudo-moar 8bb34ff07: ( no output )	08:29
Xliff	m: "hello\0\0".encode.decode('utf8').contains( chr(0) ).say	08:29
camelia	rakudo-moar 8bb34ff07: OUTPUT: «True␤»	08:29
Xliff	m: "hello".encode.decode('utf8').contains( chr(0) ).say	08:29
camelia	rakudo-moar 8bb34ff07: OUTPUT: «False␤»	08:29
Xliff	.tell ToddAndMargo "hello".encode.decode('utf8').contains( chr(0) ) ... You want the ".decode" part on.	08:30
yoleaux	Xliff: I'll pass your message to ToddAndMargo.	08:30
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buggable	New CPAN upload: File-XML-DMARC-Google-0.1.1.tar.gz by TYIL http://modules.perl6.org/dist/File::XML::DMARC::Google:cpan:TYIL	08:40
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pmurias	http://blogs.perl.org/users/pawel_murias/2018/10/rakudojs-update---it-has-been-merged-into-master-plus-6pad-unveiling.html # rakudo.js update	09:27
masak	woo	09:27
yoleaux	7 Oct 2018 09:59Z <brrt> masak: re macros, it might be interesting for you to learn that since I implemented hygienic macros in the the expression template compiler, I can actually abstract things that I couldn't in C	09:27
masak	pmurias++	09:27
	brrt: that is interesting. we should have a chat sometime	09:28
	(simply because I need to keep the pool of peers whose brains stay solid when talking about macros as large as possible)	09:28
moritz	def not me :)	09:33
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masak	more than with any piece of software, with 007 I've felt how true the "debugging is twice as hard as writing the code" is	09:36
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masak	just wait until you hit your first lexical-scoping-related bug	09:36
moritz	I remember that breakfast in Kopenhavn where we first discussed macros	09:37
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masak	that feeling when an over-eager parse causes a block entry to happen that shouldn't: https://github.com/masak/007/commit/e2dd3e66d0ac59d0af57e33ccc6d4a44aaf8d81b	09:39
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lichtkind	good morning	10:11
lizmat	lichtkind o/	10:13
lichtkind	hugs liz	10:13
	does anyone knows what happened to https://perl6.party/post/A-Request-to-Larry-Wall-to-Create-a-Language-Name-Alias-for-Perl-6 ?	10:14
lizmat	it's still there ?	10:14
lichtkind	lizmat, so nowhere?	10:14
lizmat	page works for me ?	10:15
lichtkind	i mean the wish for second name	10:15
	was this discussed?	10:15
moritz	many times	10:15
lizmat	https://www.reddit.com/r/perl6/comments/9m2k6l/a_request_to_larry_wall_to_create_a_language_name/e7cdgih/ # my opinion on the matter	10:15
lichtkind	moritz, i read rejected	10:16
moritz	lichtkind: renaming was rejected	10:16
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lichtkind	moritz, technically it was just an alias but allright, thank you both	10:18
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moritz	lichtkind: the distinction between rename and alias are kinda important	10:25
	*is	10:25
lichtkind	moritz, yes, that is why i asked since i knew the rename discussions well, but didnt heard about the alias thing	10:28
CIAvash	lichtkind: People have been talking about it, but TimToady hasn't said anything if that's what you're asking	10:30
pmurias	didn't TimToady agree that we can have aliases?	10:33
masak	lizmat: I like your summary	10:33
pmurias	having an "official" alias a bit like a covert way of getting a sort of a rename	10:33
masak	I won't throw my hat in the ring in the renaming debate; all I will say is that it will always be name "Perl 6" in my head -- for better or worse	10:34
	people can start calling it "Avocado" or whatever; my brain will still go "that's Perl 6 they're talking about"	10:34
CIAvash	pmurias: I meant that he has not responded to the blog post	10:35
moritz	... and it's only been one way	10:36
lizmat	actually, not renaming Perl 6 may benefit Perl 5 as well	10:38
	lizmat knows of at least one case where Perl is used extensively* without upper management of the company knowing about it*	10:39
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lizmat	and the dev team doesn't want anybody to know it's Perl that they're using	10:39
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lizmat	making Perl more reputable with Perl 6 may help them using Perl 5	10:40
	*keep using	10:40
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CIAvash	Right now I'm neutral because I don't know if it will make things better or worse. Although I have had frustrating expriences too.	10:41
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Kaiepi	is it possible to close an async server's socket?	10:44
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Xliff	\o	11:09
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azawawi	hi	11:10
Xliff	m: say gather { for (^10) { take if .is-prime }; };	11:12
camelia	rakudo-moar 8bb34ff07: OUTPUT: «take without parameters doesn't make sense␤ in block at <tmp> line 1␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»	11:12
Xliff	m: say gather { for (^10) { take $_ if .is-prime }; };	11:12
camelia	rakudo-moar 8bb34ff07: OUTPUT: «(2 3 5 7)␤»	11:12
Xliff	m: say gather { for (^10) { .take if .is-prime }; };	11:12
camelia	rakudo-moar 8bb34ff07: OUTPUT: «(2 3 5 7)␤»	11:12
Xliff	\o/	11:12
azawawi	https://github.com/azawawi/ide-perl6 # syntax checking now works 🎉 WIP for other features and releasing the final thing to atom before the weekend hopefully 🙂	11:12
Xliff	Oooh! For Atom?	11:13
	azawawi++	11:13
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azawawi	Xliff: and for VSCode, neovim, vim , etc afterwards :)	11:14
	lizmat looks forward on being able to report that for next week's P6W :-)	11:14
azawawi	all-in-one :)	11:14
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azawawi	https://microsoft.github.io/language-server-protocol/specification # for reference	11:14
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Kaiepi	i'm so happy i'll finally be able to use code that i need for Net::Telnet like this if my pullreqs get merged https://hastebin.com/foxaqoquge.pl	11:18
azawawi	lizmat: ping	11:23
lizmat	pong	11:23
wamba	p6: (1 ... {!.say}).head(3)	11:24
camelia	rakudo-moar 8bb34ff07: OUTPUT: «1␤2␤3␤»	11:24
wamba	p6: (1,2 ... {!.say}).head(3)	11:25
camelia	rakudo-moar 8bb34ff07: OUTPUT: «1␤2␤2␤3␤»	11:25
azawawi	lizmat: What's our replacement for std.pm6 parsing in perl6 nowadays? so we can generate p6 program structure outline view	11:25
wamba	p6: (1,*+1 ... {!.say}).head(3)	11:25
camelia	rakudo-moar 8bb34ff07: OUTPUT: «1␤2␤3␤»	11:25
lizmat	azawawi: I'm not sure, maybe moritz masak jnthn know ?	11:25
	m: dd (1,*+1 ... {!.say}).head(3)	11:26
camelia	rakudo-moar 8bb34ff07: OUTPUT: «1␤(1, 2, 3).Seq␤2␤3␤»	11:26
azawawi	lizmat: i remember a perl6 --target=something output some ast	11:26
lizmat	ah that, --target=ast for initial AST	11:27
timotimo	there's --output=parse, ast, and optimize	11:27
	--stagestats gives you every stage you can put into --target, though not every stage can be dumped to the console	11:27
azawawi	cool thx	11:28
	the animated gif in https://github.com/rust-lang-nursery/atom-ide-rust explains what services we need to implement (find definition, outline, hover, etc)	11:29
wamba	p6: (1,2 ... {!.say}).head(3)	11:31
camelia	rakudo-moar 8bb34ff07: OUTPUT: «1␤2␤2␤3␤»	11:31
wamba	why is there "2" tests two times?	11:31
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timotimo	https://tio.run/##K0gtyjH7/1/DUMdIQU9PT6HaKTE5u6QoMTlVLy@1XC@tNCdHrzix0lpBEUTVauplpCamaBhr/v8PAA	11:33
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timotimo	https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/master/src/core/operators.pm6#L194	11:34
	https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/master/src/core/operators.pm6#L427	11:35
azawawi	source code formatting => Perl6::Tidy maybe, keyword help => farabi6, rename => ??, goto-definition => ?? (we need to do some ast), outline => same thing	11:36
timotimo	the first one is on the stack when 2 gets printed the first time, the second one is on the stack, in between lines 212, 432, and 444, when the second 2 is printed	11:36
azawawi	lizmat: thanks	11:39
	azawawi work &	11:39
	← azawawi left	11:40
Xliff	If people have the time, would you mind looking at this and commenting?	11:41
	https://github.com/Xliff/p6-GtkPlus/blob/master/lib/GTK/Roles/Properties.pm6	11:41
	I think I have it right. Just want to make sure my use of gather/take is proper. It usage just clicked like 40 minutes ago.	11:42
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araraloren	gather take is slower than the normal way	11:43
yoleaux	7 Oct 2018 17:41Z <El_Che> araraloren: ping me about the rakudo-pkg problem so we can have a look. Feel free to raise an issue in github	11:43
Xliff	araraloren: What's the "normal" way? .grep?	11:45
	And how much of a performance hit are we talking?	11:45
wamba	timotimo: thank you for explanation	11:45
araraloren	yeah, Make a new Array, or grep	11:45
Xliff	araraloren: Ah! Thanks.	11:46
timotimo	lazy hashes don't actually exist	11:46
	so the gather there would immediately be eager-ified	11:46
	the code should be equivalent to %( do for (...) { @names[$_] => @values[$_] } )	11:46
araraloren	Xliff IDK, but it is slower, and I think you don't need that	11:46
Xliff	araraloren: OK! Thanks for that tip. I will look at redoing it.	11:47
araraloren	welcome	11:47
Xliff	But... I kinda wanna leave it after I went through the trouble of finally grokking	11:47
	:)	11:47
wamba	p6: say 1,2,3,4,5 ... * > *'	11:49
camelia	rakudo-moar 8bb34ff07: OUTPUT: «=== SORRY!=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Two terms in a row␤at <tmp>:1␤------> say 1,2,3,4,5 ... * > * ⏏ ' ␤ expecting any of:␤ infix␤ infix stopper␤ postfix␤ statement end␤ statemen…»	11:49
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wamba	p6: say 1,2,3,4,5 ... * > *	11:49
camelia	rakudo-moar 8bb34ff07: OUTPUT: «(1 2 3 4)␤»	11:49
Xliff	timotimo: Oh! Thanks.	11:49
	So is gather take more for lazyness?	11:50
	s/lazyness/laziness/	11:50
araraloren	yeah	11:50
timotimo	i'd say so, though there's an optimization for when gather/take is used in an eager context	11:51
	normally take will store a continuation of the gather block so that the next .pull-one can resume the code where it left off	11:51
Xliff	Ah!	11:51
timotimo	but when it's eager, it'll just push the value to the result array and continue without going through the continuation mechanism	11:51
lizmat	timotimo: does it ?	11:52
timotimo	i believe so	11:52
Xliff	The only reason why I used that is because I didn't realize the pairs would propagate to the return. Is that the result of 'do'?	11:53
ufobat_	sena_kun, have you had some time to look into it, or should i make another issue out of my gist?	11:53
timotimo	do is used to turn a for loop into an expression	11:53
Xliff	Right. OK. I just never thought to use it in a loop. I always use 'do' to take the last value of a block and assign to a variable.	11:54
timotimo	if for doesn't come right at the start, or after a "do", it'll be interpreted as a statement-end-for, and then the parser will get confused by the presence of a block	11:54
Xliff	TIL!	11:54
sena_kun	ufobat_, sorry, not yet. Yesterday I was not able to get out of my bad, yet alone code something properly, and the amount of things is not decreasing either. :/	11:55
Xliff	So would the !checkNames and !checkValues methods be better written with .grep?	11:55
sena_kun	ufobat_, I think, please, open an issue with some details / a gist to reproduce and we'll work on it eventually, sorry again.	11:56
timotimo	Xliff: i personally would use grep, yeah	11:56
Xliff	OK, thanks!	11:56
	araraloren++ && timotimo++	11:57
timotimo	another thing is that when you "die" inside a gather/take and it's being consumed lazily, then the exception will arrive while iterating	11:57
	if you do it eagerly, it'll be thrown immediately when !checkNames is "still running"	11:57
Xliff	So... better with .map -- not .grep	11:59
timotimo	it's fine to die inside of grep, too	12:00
ufobat_	sena_kun, no need to say sorry :-)	12:00
Xliff	Yeah, but I need to return a list of either Str or GValue objects, especially if they need to be co-erced.	12:01
timotimo	oh	12:01
	right, map makes more sense in that case	12:02
	seems like my waking up hasn't finished yet	12:02
Xliff	:)	12:02
	Last thing.	12:02
	If I need a type coerced to a specific type in a specific package, will calling the fully packaged type name be sufficient?	12:02
	So if my GValue is in A::B, then can I do self.A::B::GValue()	12:03
timotimo	coercions are implemented as methods on the object that are named the same as the type; i haven't ever thought about how it interacts with packages, but what A::B::GValue will give you is the method that A::B provides which is looked up in self	12:04
	so that will only work if your self also inherits from or mixes in A::B	12:04
Xliff	Ah. That's weird.	12:04
wamba	p6: say 1,2,3 ... { say "$^a,$^b"; $^a > $^b }	12:05
camelia	rakudo-moar 8bb34ff07: OUTPUT: «1,2␤2,3␤3,2␤(1 2)␤»	12:05
timotimo	it's for when you want to call superclass' implementations of a specific method	12:05
	← pmurias left	12:05
timotimo	or when you want to disambiguate between roles that offer the same method	12:05
Xliff	Because when I have something like sub(GValue() $v) { ... }, I needed to create "method A::B::GValue" to return the coerced type.	12:05
timotimo	i'd expect it to "just" use GValue as the name in that case	12:05
	though i'd have to check	12:06
Xliff	Would it then be better to do "my GValue() $v = $my_object_to_coerce"	12:06
timotimo	it's possible to invoke a method called A::B::GValue, though, it just occurs to me	12:06
	self.'A::B::GValue'()	12:06
	that could be the right way to go about it	12:06
Xliff	aHA!	12:06
timotimo	anyway, i gotta go AFK for a bit	12:06
Xliff	I will check.	12:06
timotimo	i hope this leads to success	12:06
Xliff	It's kinda important, as this is the latest long-term refactor I have to do, now.	12:06
	So I need a path to completion. ;)	12:07
	Well, it compiles OK.	12:07
	This is promising.	12:07
timotimo	it really comes down to how GValue() is implemented, i.e. what exact method name the coercer will call for you	12:09
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jnthn	Kaiepi: Just be .close of the tap that comes back from .listen	12:23
	*by	12:23
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Xliff	Hi, jnthn	12:31
jnthn	o/ Xliff	12:32
Xliff	I think I am close to a not-so generic method of signal handling with Supplies.	12:33
jnthn	:)	12:33
Xliff	The problem is that my first attempt at it isn't working.	12:33
	This is a bit messy, but it is mostly working.	12:34
	The only problem is that it doesn't draw anything.	12:34
	https://github.com/Xliff/p6-GtkPlus/blob/master/t/24-overlay.t	12:34
	LOL!	12:34
	That is a port of this: https://github.com/sweckhoff/GTK-Cairo-Sinusoids/blob/master/gtk_cairo_sinusoid_plot.c	12:35
	Is it possible to get two roles to use the same attribute?	12:36
lizmat	you mean with same name, or actually referring to the same attribute ?	12:38
	if the latter, then that can only be done if you make it a public attribute and use the accessor	12:38
	afaik	12:38
Xliff	lizmat: OK. So I HAVE to have get/set for that role so that it can be used by other roles.	12:39
	Damn.	12:39
lizmat	atm, afaik, yes	12:39
Xliff	I was hoping I was missing a trait. That way two roles can exist that use the same attribute. Especially when one role must work independently of the other.	12:40
	I guess the only way to accomplish that is to decouple the attribute from both roles and have them both use that role.	12:40
lizmat	m: role A { has $!a }; role B does A { method b { $!a } }	12:40
camelia	rakudo-moar 92735770f: OUTPUT: «=== SORRY!=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Attribute $!a not declared in role B␤at <tmp>:1␤------> !a }; role B does A { method b { $!a } } ⏏ <EOL> ␤»	12:40
Kaiepi	which code are you talking about jnthn?	12:40
lizmat	m: role A { has $!a }; role B does A { method b { $.a } }	12:40
camelia	rakudo-moar 92735770f: ( no output )	12:40
Xliff	lizmat: Yes, but both roles need read-write.	12:41
lizmat	has $.foo is rw ?	12:41
Xliff	And in my case, Role A may not be used with Role B, but in most cases they are.	12:41
	So for that case...	12:42
	m: role ℵ { has %.foo is rw }; role A does ℵ { method a { %.foo<a> = 1; }; }; role B does ℵ { also does A; method b { self.a %.foo<b> = 2; %.foo.gist}; }; class AA does B { method new { self.b }; }; Aa.new	12:45
camelia	rakudo-moar 92735770f: OUTPUT: «=== SORRY!=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Attribute '%!foo' conflicts in role composition␤at <tmp>:1␤»	12:45
	← epony left	12:45
Xliff	See... that's a problem.	12:46
	Because sometimes A and B need to work together.	12:46
	m: role ℵ { has %.foo is rw }; role A does ℵ { method a { %.foo<a> = 1; }; }; role B does ℵ { method b { %.foo<b> = 2; %.foo.gist}; }; class AA does B { also does A; method new { self.a; self.b }; }; Aa.new	12:47
camelia	rakudo-moar 92735770f: OUTPUT: «=== SORRY!=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Attribute '%!foo' conflicts in role composition␤at <tmp>:1␤»	12:47
Xliff	m: role ℵ { has %.foo is rw }; role A does ℵ { method a { %.foo<a> = 1; }; }; role B does ℵ { method b { %.foo<b> = 2; %.foo.gist}; }; class AA does B { also does A; method new { self.a; self.b }; }; Aa.new;	12:47
camelia	rakudo-moar 92735770f: OUTPUT: «=== SORRY!=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Attribute '%!foo' conflicts in role composition␤at <tmp>:1␤»	12:47
lizmat	Xliff: abstract it into a role C that both A and B do ?	12:49
Xliff	It would be nice if ℵ could do "has %.foo is shared" so that multiple roles can compose it.	12:50
	lizmat: I thought that was what I was doing with role ℵ	12:50
	The problem comes when a class needs both A and B. See class AA in the above example.	12:50
lizmat	Xliff: but you're also doing A in B	12:51
	then you don't need to do M, right ?	12:51
	m: role ℵ { has %.foo is rw }; role A does ℵ { method a { %.foo<a> = 1; }; }; role B does ℵ { method b { %.foo<b> = 2; %.foo.gist}; }; class AA does B { method new { self.a; self.b }; }; Aa.new	12:52
camelia	rakudo-moar 92735770f: OUTPUT: «=== SORRY!=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Undeclared name:␤ Aa used at line 1. Did you mean 'AA'?␤␤»	12:52
Xliff	lizmat: A previous example did that, yes.	12:52
lizmat	m: role ℵ { has %.foo is rw }; role A does ℵ { method a { %.foo<a> = 1; }; }; role B does ℵ { method b { %.foo<b> = 2; %.foo.gist}; }; class AA does B { method new { self.a; self.b }; }; AA.new	12:52
camelia	rakudo-moar 92735770f: OUTPUT: «No such method 'a' for invocant of type 'AA'. Did you mean 'b'?␤ in method new at <tmp> line 1␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»	12:52
lizmat	m: role ℵ { has %.foo is rw }; role A does ℵ { method a { %.foo<a> = 1; }; }; role B does A { method b { %.foo<b> = 2; %.foo.gist}; }; class AA does B { method new { self.a; self.b }; }; AA.new	12:53
camelia	rakudo-moar 92735770f: OUTPUT: «Cannot look up attributes in a AA type object␤ in method foo at <tmp> line 1␤ in method a at <tmp> line 1␤ in method new at <tmp> line 1␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»	12:53
lizmat	hmmm	12:53
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Xliff	lizmat: ^^"	12:53
	Roles that shared an attribute never came up in the language design?	12:54
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lizmat	not sure... was busy keeping myself alive when that happened	12:54
Xliff	Oh. Sorry to hear. Didn't mean to dredge up pain.	12:54
jnthn	Kaiepi: You asked earlier how to stop a server socket listening	12:54
yoleaux	12:47Z <lizmat> jnthn: the difference between my $a := 42 and my \a = 42 appears to be one less QAST::Var(lexical $a :decl(var))	12:54
	12:47Z <lizmat> jnthn: is that something to pursue in the core setting, to get rid of those QAST::Var's ?	12:55
Xliff	I will try to find the right Synopsis	12:55
Kaiepi	oh	12:55
jnthn	lizmat: new is a constructor, you can't call an instance method in there	12:55
Kaiepi	but doesn't the socket for the server object still exist?	12:55
masak	Xliff: roles do share an attribute, no?	12:56
Xliff	masak: Aparently not.	12:56
	m: role ℵ { has %.foo is rw }; role A does ℵ { method a { %.foo<a> = 1; }; }; role B does ℵ { method b { %.foo<b> = 2; %.foo.gist}; }; class AA does B { also does A; method new { self.a; self.b }; }; Aa.new;	12:56
camelia	rakudo-moar 92735770f: OUTPUT: «=== SORRY!=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Attribute '%!foo' conflicts in role composition␤at <tmp>:1␤»	12:56
masak	Xliff: right, just noticed	12:57
Xliff	:)	12:57
jnthn	Kaiepi: Exist where?	12:57
	Xliff: Sorry, tad tied up with work at the moment so can't look through the code in detail right now	12:58
Kaiepi	wait, i'm forgetting the socket is just an int when it's not listening or anything	12:58
masak	Xliff: in some sense, this makes sense -- roles are composed, so a collision is sort of the easiest thing that can happen	12:58
Xliff	jnthn: No problem. Take your time. I have a large scrollback for a reason.	12:58
	masak: I agree. I was hoping there was an elegant workaround, however.	12:58
	I have a hack. But those are nasty.	12:59
jnthn	Kaiepi: Pretty sure at the MoarVM level we drop the listener from the active handles and then it all becomes collectable	12:59
masak	Xliff: oh, right, you're the person on this channel who runs into a problem and then keeps beating your head against it instead of compromising and moving on :P	12:59
Kaiepi	ah	12:59
masak	Xliff: no offense -- it's probably a great way to learn things	12:59
Xliff	masak: :P	12:59
	I solved the last one, BTW.	12:59
masak	great	12:59
Xliff	Well... lizmat did.	12:59
Kaiepi	right, the socket doesn't get created until the server's tapped iirc	12:59
Xliff	It was a bug.	12:59
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Xliff	masak: And I did compromise. I have a hack. It does work. It just puts extra responsibility on the invoking classes.	13:00
	Which is fine, as long as it works.	13:00
jnthn	Kaiepi: Yes, indeed.	13:00
Xliff	I am not as dense as you think I am.	13:01
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lizmat	m: role ℵ { has %.foo is rw }; role A does ℵ { method a { %.foo<a> = 1; } }; role B does A { method b { %.foo<b> = 2; %.foo.gist } }; class AA does B { method bar { self.a; self.b } }; AA.new.bar # Xliff this seems to work ?	13:01
camelia	rakudo-moar 92735770f: ( no output )	13:01
masak	Xliff: again, no offense intended. I was once where you are now, asking about everything. it's a great way to learn.	13:01
	Xliff: specifically, I did not imply you're in any way dense	13:01
Xliff	:)	13:01
masak	Xliff: just that you have a tendency to tilt at problems as if they're windmills	13:01
	if anything, I recognize that trait in myself ;)	13:02
Xliff	LOL	13:02
	You sould look at my latest windmill.	13:02
	https://github.com/Xliff/p6-GtkPlus	13:02
	masak <-- has been trying to implement macro hygiene semantics for 3.5 years now	13:02
moritz	I kinda remember that masak++ was very good at work-arounding when writing the November wiki	13:03
masak	ah, memories	13:03
	yeah. first do the workaround, then file the RT tickets	13:03
	and discuss on channel. great way to learn indeed	13:03
Xliff	I just attained enlightenment on gather/take.	13:04
masak	Xliff: anyway, I distinctly remember discussing attribute (non-)merging in role composition back in the day	13:04
Xliff	And then proceeded to completely remove all of the code I wrote that used it.	13:04
	masak: I can understand the reason behind not wanting to merge attributes, but there are situations in mixing where it would be helpful.	13:05
jast	you're one step ahead of me, then... I know I need to delete a fair bit of code, but I still have to make up my mind which fair bit it will be :)	13:05
Xliff	Particularly when two roles can work independently doing a portion of the same work.	13:06
	jast: Heh. I know. I shed one tear when I did it. Just one.	13:06
jast	one of my most productive days I wrote 1000 lines of code... and deleted 3000	13:06
Xliff	One step forward and three steps back.	13:07
masak	Xliff: seems to me attribute merging could just as easily be a convenience as it could be a trap for the unwary	13:07
Xliff	But that's only bad when you are trying to go somewhere.	13:07
	When you can remove code and make it better , you are doing something right.	13:07
jast	well, no user-visible changes as a result	13:07
	I basically despaghettized an inherited codebase	13:07
Xliff	masak: And how many other features of Perl6 could be put in that same bucket? :)	13:08
masak	that's not a particularly good counterargument	13:08
	Xliff: I mean, it could just as easily be "the same" attribute used from two roles, as it could be two distinct attributes that just happen to share a name	13:08
	I do not look kindly on an argument such as "other features are potentually dangerous too, so let's be less careful with this one!"	13:08
Xliff	Yes. That's why I like the idea of decoupling the attribute and its accessors from the roles that use it.	13:08
jast	I like the "pit of success" argument: make the behaviour the default which has the least potential for misuse and surprises	13:09
Xliff	You could then add a trait "is shared" to allow roles to merge that attribute if used together.	13:09
	masak: Not to belittle your point, but I have run into a use-case where it would be more elegant to have a shared attribute between roles, than to have them implement different, stand-alone ones.	13:10
jast	in that sense I wouldn't mind this as an optional behaviour, but I'm not sure what would be a good way of making it available	13:10
Xliff	Arguably, I'd need to see your arguments against to determine if my use-case is worth attention.	13:10
masak	jast: yes, agreed.	13:11
Xliff	For now, each role has its own attribute, but each object will need to free each individual list, when the code to do that cleanup is the same, regardless of role.	13:11
	Yes, that cleanup code is abstracted, but it would be nice to make one call instead of umpteen.	13:12
masak	m: role R { has $!x = "OH HAI" }; class C does R { method foo { say $!x } }; C.new.foo	13:12
camelia	rakudo-moar 92735770f: OUTPUT: «OH HAI␤»	13:12
masak	Xliff: attributes are not private to roles	13:12
Xliff	(and yes, I exaggerate)	13:12
	AlexDani` → AlexDaniel	13:13
Xliff	masak: Yes. However you miss the point of my argument. :/	13:13
	m: role ℵ { has %.foo is rw }; role A does ℵ { method a { %.foo<a> = 1; }; }; role B does ℵ { method b { %.foo<b> = 2; %.foo.gist}; }; class AA does B { also does A; method new { self.a; self.b }; }; Aa.new;	13:13
camelia	rakudo-moar 92735770f: OUTPUT: «=== SORRY!=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Attribute '%!foo' conflicts in role composition␤at <tmp>:1␤»	13:13
Xliff	When role A and B are used together, it's intended that they use the same attribute to store their resource use.	13:14
masak	Xliff: my point is this: if (in your proposed semantics) attributes are not shared by default, by what mechanism do they not collide if several distinct ones of the same name are composed in a class?	13:14
Xliff	Ah! I see.	13:14
	In that example, as long as a role does ℵ, then it is shared.	13:15
	However if another role comes along that defines %.foo, it is a conflict.	13:15
jast	hmm, that actually makes sense to me	13:16
Xliff	If a role does ℵ and still defines %.foo, it is a conflict	13:16
	(actually, it would be a redeclaration...)	13:16
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masak	I like how you needed to `also does A;` to expose your problem :P	13:17
jast	this would require tracking the origin of each attribute definition... I'm not familiar with the current implementation though	13:17
Xliff	In that situation, you could say that said role would override the shared %.foo	13:17
	But that behavior is out-of-scope.	13:17
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Xliff	masak: That is exactly the point, though.	13:17
	Both A and B do ℵ which has a shared %.foo.	13:18
	And in that case, the collision isn't a collision at all!	13:18
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Zoffix	pmurias: and having a "Perl 6" doesn't create resentment in Perl 5 folks?	13:20
	pmurias: and having everyone pick arbitrary names when they're asked not to name the language they're presenting doesn't create confusion?	13:20
pmurias	Zoffix: at YAPCs I haven't seen resentment in Perl 5 folks towards Perl 6	13:23
masak	besides which, I do not want to shoulder someone else's resentment, whatever the reason	13:23
Zoffix	I trust moritz's description of Damian's incident is true, in which case IMO the naming issue is a lot worse than I thought. I don't know how you can completely ignore that and say that nothing's wrong.	13:23
pmurias	Zoffix: I don't ignore that, I understand the reasons for not wanting to use the Perl name	13:24
	Zoffix: there is some online, but largely the sentiment in real life from Perl 5'ers is that it's super cool and from some of the high profile Perl 5er would switch often if it wasn't slow	13:25
El_Che	I think most people accept there is a problem	13:25
	but some believe it will go away with time, some don't	13:25
Zoffix	pmurias: it's already being used. All I'm saying is let's agree on a single alternate name to use instead of making up wizard names each time.	13:25
AlexDaniel	El_Che: I'm not so sure about that	13:26
	masak writes some Perl 6 instead of discussing its name	13:26
pmurias	Zoffix: you don't need to have an "official" alias to agree on it	13:27
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El_Che	AlexDaniel: are there people in the "there is no problem"-camp?	13:28
	let's call it masak ("Masak: it gets shit done")	13:29
Zoffix	pmurias: in my backlog a screen above, a Rakudo core developer is calling me unstable and mentally ill for merely compiling the naming discussions together in one blog. How long does your plan of agreeing on one unofficial alias will take?	13:29
Kaiepi	go and golang are synonymous and people have no problem with it	13:30
Zoffix	pmurias: I want TimToady to pick an official alias to put all these discussions to rest.	13:30
pmurias	Zoffix: that's the effect trying to get rid of the Perl names will have on some people	13:32
Zoffix	pmurias: but that's not what we're doing.	13:32
AlexDaniel	Zoffix: I appreciate your work on that issue	13:33
	and I'm happy that it's moving somewhere	13:33
	finally	13:33
Zoffix	pmurias: the alternate name is already in use. "Camelia" on Perlmonks, "Rakudo" in some other places, "Albus" in Damian's talk when he was asked not to say the language name. We're not moving anywhere from any Perls. We're not splitting any confs. We're just merging all those made up names into a single one to have some consistency.	13:33
pmurias	Zoffix: sure, but it looks a lot like that	13:34
AlexDaniel	El_Che: you've seen it already, I think it's one of the examples http://colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_log/perl6?date=2018-10-07#l640	13:35
Zoffix	AlexDaniel: I don't think it's moving anywhere. The alias proposal was the first thing on 6.d-prep TODO list and no one blinked an eye. Now that's it's finally done, suddenly I'm unstable.	13:35
pmurias	Zoffix: I feel like Larry picking an official alias would be giving it "official" support	13:35
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Zoffix	pmurias: and why is that bad?	13:36
AlexDaniel	Zoffix: don't worry about it too much, any change is hard	13:37
pmurias	because it gives it make it seem like the alias is more official than the "Perl 6" name itself	13:37
jast	I kind of doubt that	13:37
	it's not like the moment an official name is announced all the URLs and the tagline on the official website will change	13:38
AlexDaniel	Zoffix: my university changed it' name. This required domain name change (so all emails are now also different) as well as all printed labels, signs, etc. had to be changed as well	13:38
Zoffix	pmurias: that logic doesn't make sense to my mind.	13:38
AlexDaniel	Zoffix: it was fun to watch, especially in context of an alias for perl 6	13:38
Zoffix	AlexDaniel: many vendors at my job change logos, names, etc. That includes all the packaging changes.	13:38
jast	*official alias. my bad.	13:38
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AlexDaniel	Zoffix: also people (who work in the university) are unhappy, because they don't like the name or whatever	13:39
Zoffix	heh	13:39
AlexDaniel	even though it is technically better	13:39
Zoffix	.oO( South Hampton Institute of Technology )	13:39
	jast .oO( People's Front of Judea )	13:40
SmokeMachine	.	13:40
yoleaux	06:08Z <jmerelo> SmokeMachine: thanks! Congratulations for what, exactly?	13:40
	06:11Z <jmerelo> SmokeMachine: I got the Camelia! Woohooo! I didn't know...	13:40
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SmokeMachine	.tell jmerelo :)	13:40
yoleaux	SmokeMachine: I'll pass your message to jmerelo.	13:40
pmurias	Zoffix: that's at least how I view the intentions behing the proposal	13:42
	* viewed	13:43
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pmurias	Zoffix: btw have you consider refering to Perl 6 just as "6"	13:44
Zoffix	pmurias: it would be of equal status to "Perl 6", in fact, slightly less, given the $PERL dyn var, PERL6_ env var, `perl6` binary, etc.	13:44
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Zoffix	pmurias: what about just a blank space?	13:44
AlexDaniel	Zoffix: another possibly related issue was RT → GitHub switch. A lot of people were against and didn't see any problem, then suddenly nobody wants to touch RT anymore	13:44
	even though I agree that GitHub is LTA, and maybe especially after Microsoft acquisition. But for development and for users, from convenience standpoint, it's just better	13:45
Zoffix	AlexDaniel: oh yeah, I remember the huge winging and bikeshedding against the switch and when we finally did no one even blank an eye.	13:45
	And that's exactly why TimToady needs to pick an alias instead of hoping to come to agrement on an unofficial one. People love to discuss	13:47
	Like, why would I refer to "Perl 6" as just "6"?	13:48
	"Hacktoberfest! Send 5 PRs to 6 and win a shirt!"	13:49
	"Local mongers today: 6 presentation!"	13:49
AlexDaniel	ahhh, that one made me chuckle	13:50
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pmurias	Zoffix: I feel you just want a rename and are just trying to get it some roundabout manner	13:51
AlexDaniel	6lang is basically that, just googleable and clearer	13:51
	pmurias: so you're worried that people will prefer the alias so much that “perl 6” will be given up completely?	13:52
	because if they don't, “perl 6” as the main name will just stay	13:53
	and everyone who can't use it for any reason will just use the alias	13:53
	everyone wins, no?	13:53
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Zoffix	pmurias: I do want a rename. Then people, including ugexe, said they don't want it. So as a compromise between two camps, the alias idea came to be. It can be a rename if the alias will become so much more popular than "Perl 6" that no one uses "Perl 6", but it will be a natural death of the name and not a result of some kind of secret mastermind scheme of mine. It's as I've said in my blog, the alias is the	13:55
	means for the rename crowd to prove their claims of the alias being superior. If it isn't, then no one will use it and the "perl 6" name will stay dominant.	13:55
lizmat	Zoffix: that feels like an Edsel to me :-(	13:55
Zoffix	lizmat: Edsel the car?	13:56
lizmat	yup	13:56
Zoffix	"Historians have advanced several theories in an effort to explain the Edsel's failure. Popular culture often faults the car's styling. Consumer Reports has alleged that poor workmanship was the Edsel's chief problem. Marketing experts hold the Edsel up as a supreme example of the corporate culture's failure to understand American consumers. Business analysts cite the weak internal support for the product	13:58
	inside Ford's executive offices. According to author and Edsel scholar Jan Deutsch, the Edsel was "the wrong car at the wrong time."	13:58
	lizmat: I don't see how unifying the alternate name people use fits into any of that.	13:58
pmurias	eta-lang is also doing the rename to hide the fact it's haskell on the jvm	13:58
	AlexDaniel: making the alias "official" seems to be like something that would give "official" status to the "we are getting rid of the Perl brand" movement	13:59
Zoffix	Think of it this way: if TimToady stays silent and no alias gets created, PerlMonks will continue to use "Camelia", I will start using "Rakudo" again, Damian will continue using "Albus" or some other wizard name, and ugexe will use "Perl 6". If TimToady makes Foo alias. PerlMonks will use "Foo", I will use "Foo", Damian will use "Foo", and ugexe will use "Perl 6". I see progress for the first three and no	14:01
	change for the last one.	14:01
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Zoffix	pmurias: IMO ignoring the desire to get rid of the Perl brand will just lead to someone getting sufficiently fed up to make a hostile fork and move on.	14:02
moritz	I agree with Zoffix's reasoning here	14:02
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lizmat	the idea of being the best thing to both worlds and winding up with something that does't please anybody	14:02
Zoffix	lizmat: to me, it's not best of both worlds but a compromise.	14:03
pmurias	Zoffix: why do you want to have TimToady choose the "official" "community alias"	14:03
Zoffix	pmurias: so I wouldn't have to eyeroll at proposals of using "6" as unofficial alias. Or "+-1" or "perlsex" or any other ridiculous proposal.	14:04
pmurias	all the renamers could just agree to a vote and vote	14:05
AlexDaniel	hehe yes everyone can just agree	14:05
Zoffix	pmurias: the "perlsex" won the last vote, as I recall	14:05
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moritz	an edict from our BDFL is the best way to achieve some form of common focus	14:06
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Zoffix	Ah, no it was third: https://www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=1217692	14:06
	With Perl 6 and Perl++ being the top choices, both of which miss the point of the alias.	14:07
	And yeah, Rakudo is the top one without "Perl" in it.	14:08
moritz	also, the selection of items to land on that list hasn't been democratic at all, and the poll was mostly directed at a Perl 5 audience	14:08
lizmat	indeed. And at the current time, it would have one vote less for "Perl 6" because I've decided to not do Perlmonks anymore	14:11
	and I'm not the only one	14:11
	so that is a very biased poll indeed	14:12
	both in selection of options, as in the audience	14:12
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Geth	¦ p6-sake: 08ce6c0628 \| (Aleks-Daniel Jakimenko-Aleksejev)++ \| META6.json	14:14
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Kaiepi	using rakudo as the secondary name would be like calling frontend javascript node.js	14:16
timotimo	except javascript has already had many implementations in the past that are still in use	14:16
Zoffix	lizmat: why are you not doing Perlmonks anymore?	14:16
lizmat	Because of all of the shit I got directed at me	14:16
timotimo	whereas the prior implementations of perl6 have all been discontinued, except for fanlang, which is to my knowledge not public	14:16
AlexDaniel	Kaiepi: yeah, it's really weird	14:17
Zoffix	Would the unofficial alias have a footing in the docs? As in, would a person writing documentation who prefers to use the alias instead of "Perl6" be able to use it in a sentence or would they be forced to use "Perl 6" always?	14:18
Kaiepi	i think the docs should use the official name	14:18
	but mention that the alias exists	14:18
moritz	only an official alias	14:19
AlexDaniel	Zoffix: I think docs can be neutral in most cases (i.e. not spelling out the name at all)	14:19
	and it can depend on the document, too	14:19
	for example 5to6 docs will surely use Perl 6 because that totally makes sense	14:20
Zoffix	Well, yeah, then unofficial alias doesn't really solve anything if people can't freely use it in official spaces. There's no selection of the fittest happening for the name. And the naming bikeshed will return eventually.	14:21
AlexDaniel	Zoffix: that's a different issue, and there are many possible solutions. I wouldn't worry about it too much	14:23
	Zoffix: I'm just thinking out loud, but, for example, the name can depend on the domain	14:23
	or something like that	14:24
pmurias	why should offiical spaces use a community alias?	14:24
Zoffix	pmurias: because otherwise we're not changing anything?	14:26
pmurias	you could have a docs.randomcrapname.org do automatically to a s// substituation	14:26
	s/do automatically/do automatically	14:26
	s/do automatically/automatically add :(	14:26
AlexDaniel	well, that's what I was trying to say, but without the word “crap”	14:27
	still, IMO, in most cases there is a way to phrase things without saying the name all the time	14:28
	we can open a ticket for that	14:28
Zoffix	AlexDaniel: so... picking the list of all the suggestions received so far (except "perlsex") and making a poll until 27th, and going with that as unofficial alias? Is that the plan?	14:30
AlexDaniel	Zoffix: it could be, but for clarity, what happened to the original idea of leaving it to TimToady? I may have missed something	14:31
	ahhh you're saying unofficial	14:31
	but again, why unofficial if we can first wait for the official one?	14:32
pmurias	Zoffix: you can even call that the "community alias" if it's chosen by a vote	14:32
AlexDaniel	I'm really missing something it feels like	14:32
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Geth	¦ doc: finanalyst++ created pull request #2369: Language page categories	14:33
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Zoffix	AlexDaniel: well, I don't know if TimToady will even respond (he didn't say he'd pick one when I asked if he were open for making one last week). I rage-quitted our FB group because I got spammed to death by people saying they're against the rename. ugexe called me mentally unstable while dissing the idea of the alias as "this shit", and pmurias thinks I'm an evil mastermind weaving a scheme for a full rename.	14:34
AlexDaniel	Zoffix: … nice. Let's maybe wait a bit, if I was TimToady I'd prefer to think a bit before doing any decision	14:35
Zoffix	ok	14:35
AlexDaniel	Zoffix: it will work fine as a backup plan if something goes wrong, we will lose a bit of time but that's not too critical I think	14:36
Zoffix	ok	14:36
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Zoffix	s/the rename/the alias/;	14:39
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El_Che	(I didn't know there was a name vote)	14:59
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cosimo	what is the idea behind this "alias" initiative?	15:02
El_Che	cosimo: I think Zoffix' post explains it pretty well	15:03
	https://perl6.party/post/A-Request-to-Larry-Wall-to-Create-a-Language-Name-Alias-for-Perl-6	15:03
cosimo	thanks El_Che	15:04
thundergnal	(Not seriosly proposing, just my own idle thoughts) I've always been slightly sad we didn't go with Opel. It's Perl! But with more objects, and less... (something that starts with r :-/) Unfortuantely there already is a (obscure) language called Opel.	15:04
El_Che	You know about the cars, right?	15:05
thundergnal	Or Nacre. It's <strike>mother</strike> sister of Perl!	15:05
jast	more objects and less regular expressions ;)	15:05
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thundergnal	El_Che yep, but cars aren't programming languages.	15:06
El_Che	It does not matter, ideas are already associated to the existing brand	15:06
thundergnal	Similar to Apple records that has nothing to do with Apple computers.	15:07
	Ah well, just idle musings.	15:07
El_Che	e.g. Call it LADA, RollsRoyce or Tesla	15:07
	(Apple is a generic word, Opel a family name)	15:08
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El_Che	and be sure, that in the Apple case attorneys were involved :)	15:08
thundergnal	El_Che you did see the thing about "not seriously proposing" ?	15:08
El_Che	https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Corps_v_Apple_Computer	15:09
	thundergnal: I am serious 100% of the time	15:09
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El_Che	thundergnal: people that know me can certify my claim	15:09
lizmat	eh	15:09
timotimo	https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/oct/07/apfelkind-cafe-trademark-battle-apple-germany	15:09
El_Che	otherwise I'll sue them for defamation and calumny	15:09
thundergnal	El_che: Snort :-)	15:10
El_Che	:)	15:10
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jast	remember when firefox was called firebird? remember when firebird was called phoenix? :)	15:12
	(phoenix, which had the ambitious goal of fitting the entire browser on a floppy disk... and today firefox is bigger than netscape navigator 4)	15:15
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phogg	Phoenix was already bigger than that, as I recall.	15:16
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jast	I remember Netscape Navigator 4.something being around 6 MB and Phoenix 0.5 being 4.7 MB (give or take)	15:16
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tyil	remember when browsers were still fast and didn't require you to have 16 gb of ram to read simple text articles	15:17
jast	oh, you mean w3m	15:17
tyil	yes	15:19
jast	actually the installer for Netscape Navigator 4.08 was 9.7 MB on Windows 4.0+	15:19
phogg	You can still get that, but it won't do everything a modern browser is expected to do. Netsurf is an example.	15:19
tyil	basically any browser without js :'D	15:19
jast	today's firefox download for macOS is 54.1 MB	15:20
phogg	jast: I may be thinking of a later (early firefox) release. I don't seem to have it in my archives any more.	15:20
jast	38.3 MB for Windows	15:20
	I was a little off the mark, but firefox is still bigger than navigator today...	15:21
	http://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/phoenix/releases/0.5/	15:21
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jast	don't trust the numbers too much... where the mozilla web server says the Windows installer for firefox 0.9 is "4M", the download actually weighs in at 5.9 MB	15:23
El_Che	https://i.ytimg.com/vi/NpYEJx7PkWE/hqdefault.jpg	15:23
jast	oh never mind, this toy OS here tricked me	15:23
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tyil	I dont care much about storage size of the browser to be honest	15:36
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tyil	I'm working in terabytes, I could care less about the browser being 55mb or 100mb in storage consumption	15:37
	ram usage and speed, however	15:37
	and bandwidth usage	15:37
	and cpu usage	15:37
	those have all increased far beyond reasonable numbers, even for the most simple of sites	15:38
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Kaiepi	have you guys ever compiled firefox before	15:39
tyil	yes	15:39
Kaiepi	it's almost as bad as gcc	15:39
tyil	I do it every release, which is every couple days nowadays	15:39
Kaiepi	damn	15:39
tyil	compiling it is the only way to sanely get rid of all the garbage Mozilla is putting in to it these days	15:40
Kaiepi	are you using poudriere on freebsd?	15:40
tyil	nope	15:41
Kaiepi	or doing it on your computer	15:41
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Kaiepi	oh	15:41
tyil	I'm using Funtoo, and compiling usually on my desktop	15:41
	but I can also compile on a server if needs be	15:41
	I make binaries out of them which I then redistribute to my other machines	15:42
Kaiepi	bsd ports allow you to do that as well	15:42
tyil	I didn't like the tooling available for BSD ports, and their hardware support is behind GNU+Linux as well	15:43
Kaiepi	nowadays i just use pkg on openbsd since its configurations for packages are reasonably sane	15:43
tyil	works fine for VMs and the like, though	15:43
Kaiepi	you don't like the tooling?	15:43
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Kaiepi	i found it easier to use than gentoo	15:43
tyil	I dont think any pre-compiled firefox is sane, an any distro/os these days	15:43
	but that's mozilla's fault, not the distro/os maintainers	15:44
	to make sane use of ports on bsd you need to install other ports that introduce management utils for dealing with ports	15:44
	all the utils I need to get started with building packages on Funtoo/Gentoo are provided in the base install	15:45
Geth	¦ doc: efb41519ca \| (Jason Cole)++ \| 3 files	15:46
	¦ doc: Document the Setty ops for MixHashes per TODO	15:46
	¦ doc:	15:46
	¦ doc: Also added code examples to a note in BagHash.pod6 about .reverse	15:46
	¦ doc: and included that note in MixHash.pod6.	15:46
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El_Che	(the constant joining and quitting is annoying)	16:50
dylanwh	weechat's smartfilters are really nice for this	16:51
tadzik	I can't imagine using high-traffic channels withou tthem	16:51
dylanwh	https://screenshots.firefox.com/aF8MyFTIKcn3cELL/null for non-weechat-ers	16:52
El_Che	yeah, it should be trivial with irssi as well	16:53
dylanwh	the thing is I can turn it off and see what I've missed too	16:53
	like the messages are still there -- just hidden	16:53
	so if someone joins and says something, retroactively I see their join message.	16:54
El_Che	ah, nice indeed	16:54
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metelik	hello folks	17:36
	quick question on https://raw.githubusercontent.com/ugexe/Perl6-ecosystems/master/cpan1.json	17:36
	the resource seems to exist	17:36
	yet with a zef command like	17:36
	# zef install CSV::Parser	17:37
	I am getting:	17:37
	===> Searching for: CSV::Parser	17:37
	!!!> Failed to update cpan mirror: https://raw.githubusercontent.com/ugexe/Perl6-ecosystems/master/cpan1.json	17:37
	!!!> Failed to update cpan mirror: https://raw.githubusercontent.com/ugexe/Perl6-ecosystems/master/cpan.json	17:37
	===> Updated cpan mirror: git://github.com/ugexe/Perl6-ecosystems.git	17:37
	any particular reason for the !!! messages?	17:37
	another question we (NetBSD folks) would have is about us upgrading to zef 0.4.6	17:40
	In our case the change is as follows:	17:40
	do-build:	17:41
	- cd ${WRKSRC} && ${ZEF} build . --debug	17:41
	+ echo "Build of ZEF no longer needed skipping"	17:41
	+# cd ${WRKSRC} && ${ZEF} build . --debug	17:41
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metelik	according to zef-0.4.6/README.pod: $ git clone https://github.com/ugexe/zef.git	17:42
	$ cd zef	17:42
	$ perl6 -I. bin/zef install .	17:42
	is our understanding correct ?	17:42
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buggable	New CPAN upload: Sparrowdo-VSTS-YAML-Cordova-0.0.13.tar.gz by MELEZHIK http://modules.perl6.org/dist/Sparrowdo::VSTS::YAML::Cordova:cpan:MELEZHIK	18:30
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metelik	we (NetBSD folks) would have is about us upgrading to zef 0.4.6	19:05
	<metelik> In our case the change is as follows:	19:05
	<metelik> do-build:	19:05
	<metelik> - cd ${WRKSRC} && ${ZEF} build . --debug	19:05
	<metelik> + echo "Build of ZEF no longer needed skipping"	19:05
	<metelik> +# cd ${WRKSRC} && ${ZEF} build . --debug	19:05
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	<metelik> according to zef-0.4.6/README.pod: $ git clone https://github.com/ugexe/zef.git	19:05
	<metelik> $ cd zef	19:05
	<metelik> $ perl6 -I. bin/zef install .	19:05
	<metelik> is our understanding correct ?	19:05
lizmat	ugexe nine ^^	19:06
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shmup	use lib 'path' makes sense for your project specific modules, while adjusting the PERL6LIB might make more sense for your other modules?	20:18
	i'm asking to figure out if I'm going about this in a pretty "normal" way	20:18
	as of now I'm splashing `use lib 'path'` around	20:18
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timotimo	once you've installed the library to the system, you won't need "use lib" any more :)	20:19
	and when you run your stuff out of the module's root folder where the META6 lives it'll pick up everything in the "provides" section	20:19
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shmup	i don't want to install the library to the system	20:25
	it is in active development	20:25
	assume everything I said above was pertaining to my own modules, and their dev state	20:26
tobs	Are the META6 structure and semantics documented somewhere? For the module I'm writing now, I just copied everything together until it worked	20:26
shmup	i haven't really cared about META6 structures yet, in my 2 weeks of exploration	20:26
	like i have some skeleton ones around but haven't needed them quite yet	20:26
El_Che	tobs: there is this: https://docs.perl6.org/language/modules#Preparing_the_module	20:27
shmup	tobs: have you tried tihs? https://docs.perl6.org/language/modules#Exporting_and_selective_importing	20:27
	yes that is what i used El_Che, it is nice	20:28
El_Che	ans this may be handy: https://github.com/gfldex/perl6-meta6-bin	20:28
lizmat	shmup: modules in semi-finished state can be installed from their root directory with "zef install ."	20:28
shmup	lizmat: and updates don't require additional `zef install .` ?	20:28
El_Che	I certainly miss content, but do you need to install?	20:29
shmup	lizmat: any benefits to that approach versus the other exporting/importing methods? (during development)	20:29
tobs	hmm, yes, thanks. That answers more than I remembered.	20:29
lizmat	if the version doesn't change, you would have to do "zef install . --force"	20:29
El_Che	perl6 -Ilib bin/foo.p6	20:29
shmup	that is a bad feedback loop	20:29
lizmat	shmup: YMMV	20:29
shmup	imo	20:29
	yeah lizmat probably heh	20:29
El_Che	PERL6LIB=lib bin/foo.p6	20:29
shmup	^ is a better feedback loop	20:29
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lizmat	I've found it handy a few times when developing a role depending on another role in a different distribution	20:30
tobs	the meaning of the "provides" key isn't entirely clear to me though. Surely I don't list every package in my module there?	20:30
shmup	tobs: are you interested in these details for public consumption? or are you only interested in local development at the moment	20:30
	i probably missed context above, selective reading etc	20:30
	tobs starts reading El_Che++s link	20:30
tobs	no, there was no context. Your question reminded me of one I had. It's for public consumption though	20:31
	and zef is fine with my META6 as it is, so I'm good to go at the moment	20:31
cognominal-p6	I would expect https://gist.github.com/cognominal/be3eb3d2943799cda70805adf73ba27a to give me an array of two lines because ws is lexical. What am I doing wrong ? It seem to me I once ran to a similar problem with ws. Not sure that was the same	20:35
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cognominal-p6	https://github.com/perl6/specs/issues/96 no one cane with the lexical ws. Maybe ws is special and cannot be lexical. That would be a bug.	20:37
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geekosaur	I wold guess that, because it's compiled as part of the setting, the implicit <.ws> is the one in scope when that is compiled	20:38
cognominal-p6	I would expect a lexical ws to hide it.	20:38
geekosaur	not the one when your code is compiled, and ws would need to become magical to do what you want, or the setting would need to be compiled along wth your code	20:38
cognominal-p6	my code is not in the setting :)	20:39
geekosaur	exactly	20:40
	your'e imagining that somehow it tacks the ws in scpe ontot he rule. I'm imagining that is dne as part of the definition of rule itself, so the ws in scope at that time is used	20:40
	and there may be performance implications to changng it	20:40
cognominal-p6	Not so much after jnthn optimizations	20:44
	m: grammar A { token a { a }; { my token a { b }; token TOP { <a> }}}. say b.parse('b')	20:46
camelia	rakudo-moar 560e94ef2: OUTPUT: «=== SORRY!=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Two terms in a row␤at <tmp>:1␤------> token a { b }; token TOP { <a> }}}. say ⏏ b.parse('b') ␤ expecting any of:␤ infix␤ infix stopper␤ statement end␤ …»	20:46
cognominal-p6	m: grammar A { token a { a }; { my token a { b }; token TOP { <a> }}}. say A.parse('b')	20:46
camelia	rakudo-moar 560e94ef2: OUTPUT: «=== SORRY!=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Two terms in a row␤at <tmp>:1␤------> token a { b }; token TOP { <a> }}}. say ⏏ A.parse('b') ␤ expecting any of:␤ infix␤ infix stopper␤ statement end␤ …»	20:46
cognominal-p6	m: grammar A { token a { a }; { my token a { b }; token TOP { <a> }}}; say A.parse('b')	20:47
camelia	rakudo-moar 560e94ef2: OUTPUT: «｢b｣␤ a => ｢b｣␤»	20:47
cognominal-p6	specific to ws indeed.	20:47
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lichtkind	can i POD link into another document?	20:59
cognominal-p6	ws seems to be hardwired here https://github.com/perl6/nqp/blob/master/src/QRegex/Cursor.nqp#L956	21:03
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timotimo	can't you "my token ws"?	21:27
Demos[m]	are there any good, structured, ways to use dynamic vars? Like I have one type that gets used in the context of another, containing type	21:27
cognominal-p6	timotimo, that's what I do	21:28
timotimo	does it work?	21:29
cognominal-p6	no	21:29
timotimo	then maybe we should look into implementing what pmichaud mentions there, giving "sigspace" an argument	21:29
	at first glance that shouldn't be very hard to implement?	21:30
cognominal-p6	checking S05	21:32
	Anyway ws should not be special	21:33
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cognominal-p6	Also an argumented sigspace should be added to any rule. The block scope is more elegant.	21:36
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timotimo	does it work for other things? like ww or ident?	21:37
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cognominal-p6	m: say 'bab' ~~ m:s( /a/ )/ b + /	21:39
camelia	rakudo-moar 605bcb391: OUTPUT: «=== SORRY!=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Adverb s value must be known at compile time␤at <tmp>:1␤------> say 'bab' ~~ m:s( /a/ ) ⏏ / b + / ␤»	21:39
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lizmat	AlexDaniel: is there a Squashathon link ?	21:40
cognominal-p6	m: say 'bab' ~~ m:s( rx/a/ )/ b + /	21:40
camelia	rakudo-moar 605bcb391: OUTPUT: «=== SORRY!=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Adverb s value must be known at compile time␤at <tmp>:1␤------> say 'bab' ~~ m:s( rx/a/ ) ⏏ / b + / ␤»	21:40
AlexDaniel	notable6: weekly	21:40
notable6	AlexDaniel, 8 notes: https://gist.github.com/fed4ec8388e5cb952bf94698f6fc1c5b	21:40
lizmat	AlexDaniel: with a report on what happened and a winner?	21:40
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AlexDaniel	lizmat: yes, except that I don't know how to use my bots	21:41
	lizmat: http://colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_log/perl6?date=2018-10-08#l105	21:41
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AlexDaniel	notable6: reset Another	21:42
notable6	AlexDaniel, Moved existing notes to “Another_2018-10-08T21:42:33Z”	21:42
AlexDaniel	https://github.com/perl6/whateverable/issues/344	21:43
	notable6: list	21:44
notable6	AlexDaniel, https://gist.github.com/c19b7f6a270402d9dc61eba26fedaf08	21:44
AlexDaniel	notable6: Perl	21:44
notable6	AlexDaniel, 2 notes: https://gist.github.com/fcb943a619fb63085fc2ab10f8e6e05c	21:44
AlexDaniel	notable6: reset Perl	21:44
notable6	AlexDaniel, Moved existing notes to “Perl_2018-10-08T21:44:50Z”	21:44
AlexDaniel	notable6: weekly:	21:45
notable6	AlexDaniel, 1 note: 2018-04-30T20:07:38Z <El_Che>: https://github.com/nxadm/rakudo-pkg/releases/tag/v2018.04.1-01	21:45
AlexDaniel	notable6: reset weekly:	21:45
notable6	AlexDaniel, Moved existing notes to “weekly:_2018-10-08T21:45:09Z”	21:45
AlexDaniel	notable6: that	21:45
notable6	AlexDaniel, 1 note: 2018-08-09T14:23:31Z <lizmat>: was with the bumped MoarVm	21:45
AlexDaniel	notable6: reset that	21:45
notable6	AlexDaniel, Moved existing notes to “that_2018-10-08T21:45:26Z”	21:45
AlexDaniel	notable6: list	21:45
notable6	AlexDaniel, https://gist.github.com/a01790eccbf3f160179c7b0f1e2d5b8b	21:45
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AlexDaniel	I mean, notable6 is only used for weeklies, all this fancy functionality is not even needed	21:45
lizmat	And another Perl 6 Weekly hits the Net: https://p6weekly.wordpress.com/2018/10/08/2018-41-merged-the-js/	21:47
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cognominal-p6	yea	21:48
timotimo	maybe in the future	21:50
AlexDaniel	wow all that in one week	21:50
timotimo	lizmat: no link to 6pad?	21:50
	https://perl6.github.io/6pad/ - where you can put perl6 code and run it immediately, in your browser?	21:50
lizmat	I've thought about it, but it seemed a bit premature to me	21:51
timotimo	OK	21:51
lizmat	I'd rather mention it next week when it is hopefully more fleshed out	21:51
	people reading Pawel's articlle will find it anyway	21:51
AlexDaniel	weekly: reset	21:52
notable6	AlexDaniel, Moved existing notes to “weekly_2018-10-08T21:52:15Z”	21:52
AlexDaniel	weekly: https://perl6.github.io/6pad/ - where you can put perl6 code and run it immediately, in your browser	21:52
notable6	AlexDaniel, Noted!	21:52
AlexDaniel	weekly: https://next.oddmuse.org/ working prototype of a wiki engine written in Perl 6	21:52
notable6	AlexDaniel, Noted!	21:52
AlexDaniel	same thing, probably better to mention next week :)	21:54
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lizmat	weekly: https://scruss.com/blog/2018/10/08/𒐳-༳-⑽-𐹭-𒐲-𐅉-of-course/	22:27
notable6	lizmat, Noted!	22:27
Demos[m]	hey I'm having trouble doing something like what's in "https://github.com/perl6/roast/blob/master/S11-modules/re-export.t"	22:28
	saying use InnerModule :ALL :EXPORT works	22:28
	but use InnerModule :EXPORT says "no tag export" and as does use InnerModule :ALL, :EXPORT	22:28
	and I can't call methods or subs in the inner module no matter what	22:29
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Demos[m]	ah that's a 6.d thing	22:41
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cognominal-p6	One can redefine ws but as lexical it is invisible	23:19
	as a sigspace ?	23:19
	m: say grammar A { token TOP { <ws> }; my token ws { a } }.parse('a')	23:23
camelia	rakudo-moar 7e86d4e30: OUTPUT: «Nil␤»	23:23
cognominal-p6	m: say grammar A { token TOP { <a> }; my token a { a } }.parse('a')	23:24
camelia	rakudo-moar 7e86d4e30: OUTPUT: «No such method 'a' for invocant of type 'A'. Did you mean 'at'?␤ in regex TOP at <tmp> line 1␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»	23:24
cognominal-p6	m: say grammar A { my token a { a }; token TOP { <a> }; }.parse('a')	23:25
camelia	rakudo-moar 7e86d4e30: OUTPUT: «｢a｣␤ a => ｢a｣␤»	23:25
cognominal-p6	m: say grammar A { my token ws { a }; token TOP { <ws> }; }.parse('a')	23:26
camelia	rakudo-moar 7e86d4e30: OUTPUT: «｢a｣␤ ws => ｢a｣␤»	23:26
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AlexDaniel	e: use MONKEY-SEE-NO-EVAL; my %nums; for ^0x10FFFF { %nums{.unival}.push: $_ if !.unival.isNaN and try EVAL .chr }; for %nums.keys.sort(+*) { say “\n===== $_ =====”; for %nums{$_}.list { say .chr, ‘ 0x’, .base(16), ‘ ’, .uniname } }	23:47
evalable6	AlexDaniel, rakudo-moar 7e86d4e30: OUTPUT: «␤===== -0.5 =====␤༳ 0xF33 TIBETAN DIGIT HALF ZERO␤␤===== 0.00625 =====␤൘ 0xD58 MALAYAL…»	23:47
	AlexDaniel, Full output: https://gist.github.com/fe4426dd96c7ebe7bb181426e1aa1264	23:47
AlexDaniel	hah https://gist.githubusercontent.com/Whateverable/fe4426dd96c7ebe7bb181426e1aa1264/raw/e3a3e04dd6606a2d627fed8adcd08901b17934c2/result	23:53
	some lines are right aligned	23:53
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