IRCloggy #perl6 2018-10-17

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	2018-10-17
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Xliff	Should I ever get errors like this: "MoarVM panic: Internal error: Unwound entire stack and missed handler	01:44
	"	01:44
	I am using NativeCall, so I am not surprised to see it, but the problem comes from Perl code where an exception is being thrown.	01:44
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Geth	¦ doc: b7847a584e \| (Zoffix Znet)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) \| doc/Type/DateTime.pod6	02:19
	¦ doc: Document in-timezone coerces	02:19
	¦ doc:	02:19
	¦ doc: PoV: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/c8438e6afe311311a5be0c5c69bff7b2e1a1a3e9	02:19
	¦ doc: Propspec: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/529e4e05b8c1806113627c74ef4d493d6f0dfe11	02:19
synopsebot	Link: https://doc.perl6.org/type/DateTime	02:19
Geth	¦ doc: Closes https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/issues/2381 R#2381	02:19
	¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/b7847a584e	02:19
synopsebot	R#2381 [closed] : https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/issues/2381 [LTA] LTA .in-timezone can't take a Rat	02:19
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AlexDaniel	heh, Seqs are awesome	02:31
	there are many times when I wonder if I should try doing something lazily, only to realize that I already do	02:31
	right now I'm staring at my code not even understanding why it is lazy	02:32
	I guess I just don't understand how gather/take works	02:32
	m: sub foo { take 42; foo }; my $x = gather foo; for @$x { .say; last if $++ > 10 }	02:35
camelia	rakudo-moar c8438e6af: OUTPUT: «42␤42␤42␤42␤42␤42␤42␤42␤42␤42␤42␤42␤»	02:35
AlexDaniel	why does that not explode?	02:35
	I would've expected anything but what I meant	02:36
	yeah, I definitely don't understand what `take` does	02:37
	“The take operation may be defined internally using resumable control exceptions, or dynamic variables, or pigeons carrying clay tablets. The choice any particular implementation makes is specifically not part of the definition of Perl 6, and you should not rely on it in portable code.”	02:41
	so basically after a `take` call the execution stops until another value is pulled, right?	02:43
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Xliff	AlexDaniel: o_O -- I guess so.	03:28
	m: sub foo { take 42; foo }; say foo;	03:29
camelia	rakudo-moar c8438e6af: OUTPUT: «take without gather␤ in sub foo at <tmp> line 1␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»	03:29
Xliff	m: sub foo { take 42; foo }; say gather foo;	03:29
camelia	rakudo-moar c8438e6af: OUTPUT: «(42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 4…»	03:29
Xliff	Oooh.	03:29
	No. It evaluates to a lazy that JUST returns 42.	03:29
AlexDaniel	what do you mean?	03:30
Xliff	m: sub foo { take 42; foo }; my $x := gather foo; say $x[^5];	03:30
camelia	rakudo-moar c8438e6af: OUTPUT: «(42 42 42 42 42)␤»	03:30
Xliff	OK. See above? There is no limit on it, it's the equivalent of this:	03:30
	m: say 1...Inf	03:31
camelia	rakudo-moar c8438e6af: OUTPUT: «(...)␤»	03:31
AlexDaniel	well, there's a limit because rakudo has no tail call optimization	03:31
Xliff	m: say (1...Inf)[^10]	03:31
camelia	rakudo-moar c8438e6af: OUTPUT: «(1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10)␤»	03:31
Xliff	But since you are calling it repeatedly, the sequence returns only a list of a single value.	03:31
AlexDaniel	sub foo { say ‘before’; take 42; say ‘after’; foo }; my $x := gather foo; say $x[^5];	03:32
evalable6	AlexDaniel, rakudo-moar c8438e6af: OUTPUT: «before␤after␤before␤after␤before␤after␤before␤after␤before␤(42 42 42 42 42)␤»	03:32
Xliff	my @a = (1, 1, 1 ... 1); say @a;	03:32
AlexDaniel	sub foo { say ‘before’; take 42; say ‘after’; foo }; my $x := gather foo; for $x[^5] { .say };	03:32
evalable6	Xliff, rakudo-moar c8438e6af: OUTPUT: «[1]␤»	03:32
	AlexDaniel, rakudo-moar c8438e6af: OUTPUT: «before␤after␤before␤after␤before␤after␤before␤after␤before␤42␤42␤42␤42␤42␤»	03:32
AlexDaniel	gah	03:32
Xliff	my @a = (1, 1, 1 ... *); say @a;	03:32
evalable6	Xliff, rakudo-moar c8438e6af: OUTPUT: «[...]␤»	03:32
Xliff	my @a = (1, 1, 1 ... *); say @a[^4];	03:32
evalable6	Xliff, rakudo-moar c8438e6af: OUTPUT: «(1 1 1 1)␤»	03:32
Xliff	That's weird.	03:33
	That's SO weird.	03:33
AlexDaniel	what's weird?	03:33
Xliff	So... I guessed today's last MegaMillions number. It was 9. I was sure it was 9.	03:33
	Unfortunately... the other 5 I went blank on. :/	03:33
AlexDaniel	m: sub foo { say ‘before’; take 42; say ‘after’; foo }; my $x = gather foo; for @$x { .say; last if ++$ ≥ 3 }	03:37
camelia	rakudo-moar c8438e6af: OUTPUT: «before␤42␤after␤before␤42␤after␤before␤42␤»	03:37
AlexDaniel	Xliff: so what do you mean when you say it's equivalent?	03:37
	I mean sure, it's producing just 42,42,42,…	03:37
	but that's not the point :)	03:38
Xliff	AlexDaniel: OK. It's not equivalent. But what you are doing in foo() is creating an endless sequence containing the value 42.	03:40
AlexDaniel	yes	03:40
Xliff	$x then gets that lazily.	03:40
AlexDaniel	yes. Isn't it fantastically weird? :)	03:40
Xliff	I do not know why it does that and not go ka-bewm .	03:41
	Yes. It is! I do believe I said that! ;)	03:41
AlexDaniel	here's a ticket: https://github.com/perl6/doc/issues/2388	03:41
Xliff	My guess? Somehow the gather converts the assignment to a lazy list.	03:41
	And I don't know how it does that without, as you say, no concept of tail call optimization!!	03:43
	/o\	03:43
	At any rate, do you know what it means when rakudo spits this out?	03:43
	MoarVM panic: Internal error: Unwound entire stack and missed handler	03:43
	I'm getting that when an exception occurs in the code I've tapped my Supply with.	03:44
AlexDaniel	Xliff: sounds like a bug	03:44
Xliff	I thought that would get rethrown and give me a sensible error.	03:44
	OK. However, I have no clue how I would golf this. I will try.	03:44
AlexDaniel	yeah surely you shouldn't be getting internal error	03:44
	Xliff: you did say earlier that you were using NativeCall, did you get rid of that code?	03:45
Xliff	m: my $s = Supplier.new; $s.Supply.tap({ die ":P" }); $s.emit(1)	03:45
camelia	rakudo-moar c8438e6af: OUTPUT: «:P␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»	03:45
AlexDaniel	not that it is acceptable to get that error, but it's more understandable I guess…	03:45
Xliff	m: my $s = Supplier.new; $s.Supply.tap({ die ":P"; }); $s.emit(1)	03:45
camelia	rakudo-moar c8438e6af: OUTPUT: «:P␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»	03:45
Xliff	Hunh?	03:45
	m: my $s = Supplier.new; $s.Supply.tap({ die ":O"; }); $s.emit(1)	03:46
camelia	rakudo-moar c8438e6af: OUTPUT: «:O␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»	03:46
Xliff	m: my $s = Supplier.new; $s.Supply.tap({ die }); $s.emit(1)	03:46
camelia	rakudo-moar c8438e6af: OUTPUT: «Died␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»	03:46
Xliff	Now I'm confused.	03:46
	m: my $s = Supplier.new; $s.Supply.tap({ die ':O'; }); $s.emit(1)	03:46
camelia	rakudo-moar c8438e6af: OUTPUT: «:O␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»	03:46
Xliff	Oh. Crap.	03:46
	':' need t be backspaced in double quotes, now?	03:47
	m: my $s = Supplier.new; $s.Supply.tap({ die "∞"; }); $s.emit(1)	03:47
camelia	rakudo-moar c8438e6af: OUTPUT: «∞␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»	03:47
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holyghost	About conditional compilation : it might be interesting for the EVAL command to use meta-circular Bayes or markov techniques	04:10
	One would have to hack EVAL then	04:11
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holyghost	e.g. using Bayes::Learn in perl6 or C	04:13
	To create random runtimes	04:16
	So you have to tutor EVAL within the REPL or file load	04:22
SmokeMachine	m: sub foo { take 42; foo }; my $x := gather foo; say $x[99999]	04:24
camelia	rakudo-moar c8438e6af: OUTPUT: «(timeout)»	04:24
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SmokeMachine	AlexDaniel: why should it break? On your examples, it was iterating only 5 times...	04:26
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SmokeMachine	s/iterating/recusing/	04:27
AlexDaniel	SmokeMachine: I haven't tested thousands, but even with thousands it works	04:27
	just gets slower the deeper you go, which is LTA…	04:27
	had to wait more than a minute for [80000]	04:27
	even though [1000] finishes in 0.2s	04:28
SmokeMachine	m: sub a { a }; a	04:30
camelia	rakudo-moar c8438e6af: OUTPUT: «MoarVM panic: Memory allocation failed; could not allocate 131072 bytes␤»	04:30
SmokeMachine	Is that a LTA?	04:30
AlexDaniel	SmokeMachine: eh, in some sense, yes. Would be great to have tail call optimization, but that's irrelevant a bit in this discussion :)	04:33
	my point is that it shouldn't be getting slower just a few thousands calls deep	04:33
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SmokeMachine	Oh! I had understood you was talking that should break an error	04:34
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buggable	New CPAN upload: AI-Markov-0.1.1.tar.gz by HOLYGHOST https://cpan.metacpan.org/authors/id/H/HO/HOLYGHOST/Perl6/AI-Markov-0.1.1.tar.gz	05:50
holyghost	^-- The start of my markov strategy kit for making prospection in games	05:52
	It includes ticks, virtual time and markov chains for now	05:52
	There's also a exponential random number engine	05:52
	exponential distribution	05:52
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holyghost	I had to rename because of the time system in the markov kit to Game::Markov. It's based for games not AI as it's adaptive systems for games	06:31
	my mistake	06:31
	AI::Markov will disappear in 4 days	06:32
buggable	New CPAN upload: Game-Markov-0.1.1.tar.gz by HOLYGHOST https://cpan.metacpan.org/authors/id/H/HO/HOLYGHOST/Perl6/Game-Markov-0.1.1.tar.gz	06:40
holyghost	^-- I'm at 2800+ lines for true random number engines e.g. ripped from 3D landscapes on fractals in Objective-C/XCode	06:43
	So I put in less for the Perl6 kit so that it's less complicated to use a random number generating function in Mathx::Stat evolvable populations	06:44
	Basically you can generate a population of distributed variables for use at runtime and initialization time of a game's NPCs	06:46
	These can be random numbers	06:46
	but distributed	06:47
	You then just make actions such as "moveleft a bit" with "a bit" a probablity/chance	06:47
	then extrapolate	06:48
	by e.g. chance * 100 pixels to move	06:49
	This gives you random NPC behaviour at game runtime	06:50
	I hope it's clear you can use the probability with pixels on your window for movement and use it what I said Think classes for othre parsing	06:53
	Probabilities of vector conditions are the base of the popular Hidden Markov Model as a markov strategy	06:55
	Where you can use a vector as 3D vector pattern or 4D with quaternions	06:55
	Think probabilty * variable for your Bayes or Markov system, extend for making a game	06:58
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holyghost	Think probability * variable (e.g. pixel or NPC function) from a markov strategy or Bayesian inference or some other unsupervised learning method to make random behaviour on a 2D game such as Nintendo's R-Type or Super Contra and it'll all make sens	07:15
	s/sens/sense	07:15
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tyil	notable: https://mastodon.social/web/statuses/100898961942296645	10:00
notable6	tyil, I cannot recognize this command. See wiki for some examples: https://github.com/perl6/whateverable/wiki/Notable	10:00
tyil	rude	10:00
	note: https://mastodon.social/web/statuses/100898961942296645	10:00
notable6	tyil, I cannot recognize this command. See wiki for some examples: https://github.com/perl6/whateverable/wiki/Notable	10:00
tyil	why	10:00
	weekly: https://mastodon.social/web/statuses/100898961942296645	10:01
notable6	tyil, Noted!	10:01
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lizmat	tyil: a similar monologue can be found on Twitter	10:11
tyil	but I dont use twitter actively	10:11
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lizmat	https://twitter.com/xah_lee/status/1052155403084021760 # fyi	10:18
tyil	feel free to discuss it with him on twitter if you want	10:20
	lizmat doesn't do Twitter actively either :-)	10:21
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Geth	¦ ecosystem: e1a7bf4832 \| (Jonathan Worthington)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) \| META.list	11:05
	¦ ecosystem: Remove json-path from git-based ecosystem	11:05
	¦ ecosystem:	11:05
	¦ ecosystem: It's now released on CPAN.	11:05
	¦ ecosystem: review: https://github.com/perl6/ecosystem/commit/e1a7bf4832	11:05
buggable	New CPAN upload: JSON-Path-1.0.tar.gz by JNTHN https://cpan.metacpan.org/authors/id/J/JN/JNTHN/Perl6/JSON-Path-1.0.tar.gz	11:10
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ryn1x	If I want to write the equivalent of a java interface in perl6... is that a role? It looks like a role with stubbed methods would be like an interface, but roles can also contain implemented methods?	13:05
jnthn	Yes, a role that just has stubbed methods functions like an interface	13:06
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ryn1x	And if a role has implemented methods those are inherited by anything that does that role?	13:08
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jnthn	Composed into, but yes	13:09
ryn1x	Ok. Just trying to wrap my head around when you would then want to use a role with implemented methods vs a parent class...	13:12
jnthn	If you compose two roles with the same method, then it's a compile-time error pointing out the conflict. If you used multiple inheritance, it'd just pick one based on the MRO.	13:14
	So roles are safer in that sense	13:14
	Also, you can re-use a private method provided by a role, but not one inherited from a base class	13:15
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ryn1x	Ok, that helps. Thanks jnthn!	13:17
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Ven`	"you probably never heard of struct or record. but its in golang, racket, clojure" huh?	14:18
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Ven`	that tweetstorm is :\|\|\|	14:20
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masak	I've no idea about struct, but I believe "record" is what the cool kids are listening to	14:23
moritz	us old songs just listened to songs	14:24
	*folks	14:24
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Zoffix	"It's 18 years too late"... This wouldn't be happening if Perl 6 was named as a new language when it was released 3 years ago.	14:25
	.seen TimToady	14:25
yoleaux	I saw TimToady 5 Oct 2018 16:34Z in #perl6: <TimToady> m: constant @fac = flat 1, [\] 1..; say @fac[5]	14:25
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Zoffix	buggable: d	14:26
buggable	Zoffix, Diwali is in 20 days, which is 2 weeks, 5 days, 9 hours, 33 minutes, and 9 seconds. Need to review -227 commits per day (-1594/week) to complete. Need 1 teaser flyers. Still have 2 TODO features costing 8 hours. Still have 0.3 policies to write. Still have ~95% of ChangeLog to do.	14:26
AlexDaniel	Zoffix: where's that from?	14:27
Zoffix	AlexDaniel: from http://colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_log/perl6?date=2018-10-17#l247	14:28
	AlexDaniel: and twitter too: http://colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_log/perl6?date=2018-10-17#l256	14:28
	Though it's possible it's the same person.	14:28
AlexDaniel	oh, Xah Lee	14:29
Zoffix	AlexDaniel: doesn't look like TimToady wants to be involved in the alias process, so I'm gonna collect all the non-joke, non-"perl"-containing proposals into a poll and put it out on 19th (this Friday). Run it for 2 weeks, and get results back on the 2nd, to have 4 days before the release to prep any docs/announcements on the topic.	14:31
AlexDaniel	Zoffix: was there any response or is it just silence?	14:31
moritz	you have my axe for "Albus"	14:31
Zoffix	+1 for Albus	14:32
	AlexDaniel: he appeared to be very active until my post was posted. And a week before the post I said I'll have it to him in a week and asked if he was OK with following through with the marketing alias through he mentioned at a conf. His response to that was a joke that we should have .py extension or something.	14:33
timotimo	it's not uncommon for larry to crack jokes	14:33
Zoffix	I'm not making any more marketing materials with "Perl 6" in them. If you wanna ignore the concerns of your volunteers or call me mentally unstable, make your own stuff.	14:34
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Zoffix	I'd accept a "No, we're not making any aliases", but silence is a diss.	14:34
AlexDaniel	TimToady: so what's the situation? Are you working on it, or are we on our own?	14:34
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Zoffix	(to clarify, it wasn't TimToady who called me mentally unstable, but someone else from the "no-alias" camp)	14:35
AlexDaniel	TimToady: both are sorta ok, but it would be better to know what's going on so that no time/effort is wasted	14:35
El_Che	lizmat: I have no problem answering to the twit, but I don't know most of the answers	14:36
Ven`	masak: do you even structural typing?	14:37
Zoffix	"We're sorry, albus.org is taken." gah	14:39
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pmurias	you can now access the DOM in 6pad :)	14:39
AlexDaniel	btw I didn't get the reference when I saw Albus, I was completely indifferent to that name. It's fine though	14:39
Ven`	pmurias: amazing!	14:40
pmurias	https://perl6.github.io/6pad/#4ee170f8043efe4802c8e6fb55d6a187 # example of a DOM clock	14:40
El_Che	Zoffix: I have trouble seeing that many people don't see the urgency of the problem.	14:41
Zoffix	AlexDaniel: Damian Conway was presenting Perl 6 and organizers told him not to mention the language name until the end in fear people would leave. So he used "Albus" instead. I believe it's from Harry Potter: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albus_Dumbledore	14:41
AlexDaniel	Zoffix: I dislike that lack of communication, but making a list with a poll won't hurt even if TimToady decides to rule it out? So just go ahead maybe?	14:41
Ven`	pmurias: `use window:lang<JavaScript>;`? :P	14:41
	I guess that's :from	14:42
Zoffix	El_Che: ditto	14:42
AlexDaniel	Zoffix: also, how do we technically make that poll? On github?	14:42
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AlexDaniel	I'm a bit worried about troll votes and stuff	14:42
Ven`	Zoffix: presenting p6 where?	14:42
Zoffix	AlexDaniel: I'm gonna use surveymonkey.com	14:42
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Zoffix	Ven`: not sure, moritz knows more about that event	14:42
Ven`	thanks	14:43
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AlexDaniel	Zoffix: so that's anonymous, right?	14:43
Zoffix	AlexDaniel: I'm hoping the majority would be non-trolls.	14:43
moritz	in Erlangen, Germany	14:43
Zoffix	AlexDaniel: I think so. I know the non-anonymous option keeps IPs	14:44
	Zoffix checks if the anon option is free or not	14:44
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AlexDaniel	Zoffix: fwiw the alternative can be to create a ticket with a bunch of names in separate comments, lock the conversation, and let people 👍 👎 the names	14:45
Ven`	moritz: nothing recorded etc?	14:45
AlexDaniel	not saying that it is better, but it's just one of the options	14:45
Zoffix	AlexDaniel: locking the conversation locks the votes too	14:45
AlexDaniel	oh! Don't lock it then :)	14:46
moritz	Ven`: not that I'm aware of	14:46
pmurias_	Ven`: I'm not sure the :from<JavaScript> is the right fit for window	14:46
	Ven`: I want to have the use syntax for stuff that's require()'ed for sure	14:46
Ven`	well... I dunno. use vars <window document>:from<JS>?	14:46
	oh	14:46
Zoffix	AlexDaniel: and get a billion responses of "how about blah blah". I don't see what benefit there is in requiring a github account and using something not designed for the purpose instead of using proper polling site	14:47
AlexDaniel	Zoffix: the last comment can be “see [this] thread for discussion, this ticket is for voting only”, then we can wipe discussion if it happens.	14:47
pmurias_	Ven`: I think people will use frameworks rather than vanilla js anyway	14:47
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AlexDaniel	Zoffix: but yeah I'm not insisting, just saying that it is possible	14:47
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Ven`	brb writing some glue code to write React modules in perl6 ;)	14:48
Zoffix	Yeah, anon option is free on survey monkey	14:48
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pmurias	Ven`: we already have https://github.com/pmurias/p6-jsx	14:48
Ven`	amazing :)	14:49
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	Zoffix observes that "albuslang.com" has "slang" in it and Albus has slang feature in it :)	14:50
Zoffix	.org, .whatever	14:50
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Zoffix	I guess not many people would vote for that option if they don't know the backstory for that name :)	14:50
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Zoffix	AlexDaniel: I think we should ask for 3 choices from people: most favourite, second favourite, third favourite, and then core team reserves the right to pick among the top result. 'cause I'm fairly sure Rakudo will be the winner, but it's not an ideal name, not the least because rakudo.org is already used for the compiler	14:52
AlexDaniel	Zoffix: I see	14:52
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Ven`	.oO( Common misconception. You see, the compiler is the one thing named Perl 6 )	14:53
Zoffix	actually nm; there'd be three choices anyway doh	14:54
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Zoffix	.oO( rakudolang.org )	14:55
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AlexDaniel	heh rakudolang…	14:55
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Ven`	.oO( presenting Masak v3: rakudolangbug )	14:56
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AlexDaniel	slightly disappointed by that conversation with Xah Lee :) at the time I've read a lot of stuff from him about keyboards and keyboard layouts and it was very useful. It's weird to see him arguing that a language is too late without even looking at the language	15:00
Zoffix	:)	15:01
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robertle	AlexDaniel: let me distract	15:01
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robertle	you with this: http://semistable.com/files/keyb1.jpg	15:01
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AlexDaniel	robertle: staggered rows, no middle column, too big thumb keys…	15:02
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AlexDaniel	robertle: having a split spacebar is perhaps the only reasonable advantage of that design	15:02
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AlexDaniel	robertle: a Japanese keyboard will be roughly the same, if not better. As in: https://screenshots.firefox.com/RYzbBfQ0KM751l1E/ae01.alicdn.com	15:04
Xliff	Is there a way to shrink the number of use statements in a main program?	15:05
	Especially if it is 'use'-d by another module that is already being 'use'-d in main?	15:05
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	pmurias is glad he has huge hands and doesn't have to bother with better keyboards ;)	15:05
AlexDaniel	Xliff: I guess you can have a module that reexports other ones, so that you'll do `use All-of-Stuff-I-Like` and it'll functionally use a bunch of other stuff	15:06
	Xliff: is that what you are looking for?	15:07
Xliff	How do you re-export?	15:07
	I read something in the synopsis about that and it didn't work in rakudo.	15:08
	"use A; use B; use C :EXPORT" <- was what I tried	15:08
AlexDaniel	Xliff: I know about this: https://github.com/perl6/p6-sake/blob/9588ee92cd67a9b7cd4e5910265938e900b2d0fa/lib/Sake.pm6#L5-L10	15:09
Xliff	Ah! Thanks.	15:09
AlexDaniel	so `use Sake` also gets you Sake::Task and Sake::Task::IO	15:09
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robertle	AlexDaniel: I kinda agree with your points, but ther main point is that the rows are staggered 50%, making it a symmetric travel for the left and right hand fingers. that is quite rare. but really I just wanted to cheer you up since you like keyboards :)	15:11
ryn1x	Are the signatures of stubbed methods in a role enforced when a class does that role? I have a role written and have the stubbed methods copies over to a class that does that role, but if I modify the signatures the syntax check is ok and running as a script gives no errors...	15:11
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pmurias	AlexDaniel: converting someone that thinks Go is the pinnacle of language design to Perl 6 is hard	15:12
robertle	AlexDaniel: what do you mean with "middle column", btw?	15:12
Ven`	m: {.sum with .split(",")}("1,2,3")	15:12
camelia	rakudo-moar a096f5058: ( no output )	15:12
Ven`	m: {.sum with .split:","}("1,2,3")	15:13
camelia	rakudo-moar a096f5058: OUTPUT: «=== SORRY!=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Confused␤at <tmp>:1␤------> {.sum with .split: ⏏ ","}("1,2,3") ␤ expecting any of:␤ colon pair␤»	15:13
AlexDaniel	robertle: keys between TGB and YHN on qwerty	15:13
	robertle: this is one of the best designs I've seen, although it does have some negatives too: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1917596122/x-bows-mechanical-ergonomic-keyboard	15:14
Ven`	not sure what's confusing	15:14
AlexDaniel	Ven`: : needs a space after it	15:15
	m: {.sum with .split: ","}("1,2,3")	15:15
camelia	rakudo-moar a096f5058: ( no output )	15:15
robertle	AlexDaniel: very interesting design, thanks!	15:15
Ven`	m: say {.sum if ![==] $_ given $_.split(",")}("1,2,3") # this is kinda lame :\	15:15
camelia	rakudo-moar a096f5058: OUTPUT: «The iterator of this Seq is already in use/consumed by another Seq␤(you might solve this by adding .cache on usages of the Seq, or␤by assigning the Seq into an array)␤ in block at <tmp> line 1␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»	15:15
Ven`	though I guess it's fixable with `@=...`	15:16
AlexDaniel	robertle: btw the 50% staggering you mentioned above means that the skew angle is even bigger than on normal keyboards, right?	15:17
robertle	bigger for one hand, less for the other	15:17
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Xliff	m: {.sum with .split: ","}("1,2,3").say	15:20
camelia	rakudo-moar a096f5058: OUTPUT: «6␤»	15:20
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AlexDaniel	Ven`: yeah, you can also do .split(…).cache and the like	15:20
	it's one of the cases when things being lazy hurt a bit	15:20
Ven`	AlexDaniel: haha this is for code-golfing though :P so @= is better for the number of bytes	15:20
buggable	New CPAN upload: JSON-Path-1.1.tar.gz by JNTHN http://modules.perl6.org/dist/JSON::Path:cpan:JNTHN	15:20
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pmurias	lizmat: re access DOM from js stackoverflow question, now that it's possible should I edit the original answer or post a new one?	15:29
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Zoffix	m: say {[==] .[*] or .sum with .comb: /\d/}("1,2,3")	15:30
camelia	rakudo-moar a096f5058: OUTPUT: «6␤»	15:30
Zoffix	Ven`: you can use .[*] instead of $_ + @ =	15:30
	'cause positional access caches seqs	15:30
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Ven`	Zoffix: I ended up using an EVAL trick someone else used (`{...}o&EVAL`)\	15:31
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Ven`	I'll keep the .[*] trick in mind though :)	15:33
	Zoffix++ # even filing a LTA	15:34
Zoffix	Potentially, it could be a .[] trick: R#2383	15:34
synopsebot	R#2383 [open] : https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/issues/2383 [consistency] .[] doesn't cache a Seq	15:34
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ryn1x	Can you type the signature of a stubbed method in a role? I am trying to figure it out, but it seems only the name of the method is being enforced in the class that does the role; not the signature...	15:39
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ryn1x	I'll make some sample scripts of what I am trying to do and put together a stackoverflow question later...	15:43
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Xliff	Anyone ever think about how Perl6 and MoarVM in particular could convert to the mobile space?	15:45
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Ven`	sometimes, and then I remember I don't want to touch anything mobile-related with a 5ft pole	15:47
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leont	Android's C environment is rather terrible.	15:48
pmurias	Xliff: doesn't iOS ban jits?	15:48
Xliff	iOS probably does, but I was thinking more Android.	15:51
	And leont's point is quite valid.	15:51
	Still... at least there is a development environment for Android. And it's free.	15:51
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pmurias	Xliff: all the different system APIs are an issue	15:54
Xliff	pmurias: ART (Android RunTime) is JIT friendly.	15:55
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scimon_	I had this Crazy idea about compiling MoarVM to web assembly. Then I realised I had no idea where to start and ran away.	16:07
El_Che	Zoffix: Yeah, very fond of the Rakudo one. By far the best I've heard (to prove your point).	16:11
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CIAvash	Apparently Damian talked about Perl 6 naming and Albus in an interview. I think I've read that before https://mappingthejourney.com/single-post/2017/11/09/episode-13-interview-with-damian-conway-designer-of-perl-6-programming-language/	16:13
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Zoffix	CIAvash: thanks, looks like it was around pre-release of Perl 6. I thought it was recent.	16:27
	The Albus event (2017's interview that says "a couple years back")	16:28
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El_Che	he suggested rakudo :)	16:34
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CIAvash	Yeah and he said "I’ve done that a couple of times since", so he probably did it recently as well	16:34
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El_Che	CIAvash: great link	16:41
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SmokeMachine	Zoffix: are you adding rokudo on you pool? (thats my favorite)	17:45
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ugexe	why would we ban aliases with perl in them, and have a secondary vote where core developers have to choose out of the top 3 names to rule out rakudo, but not have an option to vote for no alias at all? there are so many special cases being made here that why are we even voting instead of letting the loudest voice pick?	17:57
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Zoffix	SmokeMachine: yup, that one's on the list. Proposed by Damian: https://gist.github.com/zoffixznet/522abeb84debe64041ea70afeebc058a	18:03
SmokeMachine	:)	18:04
Zoffix	ugexe: because the whole point of the alias is to move away from a "perl" name. Those proposals would make sense only with a full rename.	18:05
	ugexe: there wouldn't be a secondary vote, just a small discussion among those interested in the alias. This isn't a vote for an official alias, so I don't see how votes about no alias are applicable. Unlike an official alias, there won't be changes to try to include both names in, say, docs. The unofficial alias is purely for the alias-using people to have a single choice instead of using a dozen different	18:07
	names.	18:07
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Zoffix	ugexe: all official channels will continue using "Perl 6" as the only name of the language	18:07
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cygx	Zoffix: there's also this related comment on hn: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18175662	18:08
	going by user name alone, could be legit	18:08
	so TimToady might have his own proposal...	18:08
Zoffix	ugexe: or I guess I should say there're no plans to intermix the two names in official channels. The volunteers may choose to provide alternate content, like producing flyers/brochure that feature the alias rather than "Perl 6" as the name. I think someone mentioned hosting a different docs website with "Perl 6" replaced by the alias; I don't know if they still plan on doing that with an unofficial alias.	18:11
	ugexe: I'm talking about the unofficial alias the vote would be on, not whatever TimToady may or may not decide.	18:12
	Oh, I already said that.	18:13
	"to rule out rakudo" no, not rule out, but among all the proposals this one's already in-use; if there's a very close 2nd place contented, may as well pick that instead	18:20
moritz	giving Perl 6 the alias "Rakudo" is like giving C the alias GCC -- totally confusing	18:23
Zoffix	Counter-point: it's already in wide use :)	18:24
moritz	so is GCC	18:24
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[Coke]	we've also tried to push this message consistently, that (while the whole situation is confusing) rakudo is the compiler, not the lang. Going back on that sounds like a hard sell, and more confusing than a new name.	18:30
	my 2¢	18:30
Zoffix	moritz: But if you tell a random programmer you're writing your code in "GCC" they can surmise fairly correcly what you're using. So you get the benefit of reaching people who didn't get the message :)	18:31
	moritz: [Coke] but if you're adamantly against using "rakudo" as alias, we may as well agree not to put it on the list. I'm 70% certain it'll be the top winner	18:33
moritz	I fear it might	18:35
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ryn1x	Tried to write up my question from earlier more concisely and with an example here: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/52861619/are-typed-signatures-for-stubbed-methods-not-enforced-in-roles-for-perl6	18:45
Zoffix	ryn1x: don't know much about that, but I'm not aware of a way to enforce signatures.	18:47
SmokeMachine	plz! dopnt put rakudo on the list!	18:47
Zoffix	SmokeMachine: why not?	18:48
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SmokeMachine	that's the compiler name...	18:48
Zoffix	We even already own the domain (and I already own rakudo.party :P)	18:48
	SmokeMachine: so what? Perl's compiler is called "perl"	18:48
	SmokeMachine: and counter-point: it's already in wide use.	18:49
SmokeMachine	thats already being picked non-perl and non-sex names... non-compiler would be great too...	18:49
Zoffix	m: role Foo { multi method bar(Str) { … }; multi method bar (Int) { … } }; class Bar does Foo { method bar { } }	18:50
camelia	rakudo-moar 4bf55b1ef: OUTPUT: «=== SORRY!=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Multi method 'bar' with signature :(Bar: Str $, *%_) must be implemented by Bar because it is required by a role␤at <tmp>:1␤»	18:50
Zoffix	hmmm	18:50
SmokeMachine	if I thought a compiler name would be a good idea, I would sugest pugs...	18:50
Zoffix	ryn1x: looks like it is being inforced if you declare the methods as multies	18:50
ryn1x	interesting... let me go try with multi	18:52
Zoffix	ryn1x: also filed R#2384	18:54
synopsebot	R#2384 [open] : https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/issues/2384 [LTA][consistency] LTA: roles enforce method signatures only with `multi` methods	18:54
AlexDaniel	Zoffix: fwiw I also strongly dislike “rakudo” as a name/alias for the language	18:54
Xliff	m: .say for 1, 4, 9...2000	18:55
camelia	rakudo-moar 4bf55b1ef: OUTPUT: «Unable to deduce arithmetic or geometric sequence from 1,4,9 (or did you really mean '..'?)␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»	18:55
SmokeMachine	m: role R { method r {...} }; class C does R { has R $.a handles <r> = class :: does R { method r { 42 } } } # is this a bug?	18:55
camelia	rakudo-moar 4bf55b1ef: OUTPUT: «=== SORRY!=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Method 'r' must be implemented by C because it is required by roles: R.␤at <tmp>:1␤»	18:55
Zoffix	m: say sqrt 2000	18:55
camelia	rakudo-moar 4bf55b1ef: OUTPUT: «44.721359549995796␤»	18:55
Xliff	m: .say for 1, 4, * ** 3...200 #	18:55
Zoffix	m: .say for 1, 4, 9...45²	18:55
ryn1x	Zoffix: Is does seem to work with "multi method". I guess I need to go read about "multi" a little more. I never though to use it outside of overloading... but it also seems useful for enforcing types.	18:55
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camelia	rakudo-moar 4bf55b1ef: OUTPUT: «(timeout)1␤4␤64␤262144␤18014398509481984␤5846006549323611672814739330865132078623730171904␤199791907220223502808422222706762643567910281130558153654986045416023791284464999687699590596063486154228923591770023865308670443474450259602571264…»	18:56
	rakudo-moar 4bf55b1ef: OUTPUT: «Unable to deduce arithmetic or geometric sequence from 1,4,9 (or did you really mean '..'?)␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»	18:56
SmokeMachine	I dont know if I should open an issue for that ^	18:56
Zoffix	SmokeMachine: yes. Also, it might already be there.	18:56
Xliff	m: .say for 1, 4, 9, ...2000	18:56
camelia	rakudo-moar 4bf55b1ef: OUTPUT: «=== SORRY!=== ␤Two terms in a row␤at <tmp>:1␤------> .say for 1, 4, 9, ... ⏏ 000 ␤ expecting any of:␤ infix␤ infix stopper␤Other potential difficulties:␤ Comma found before apparent sequence operator; pl…»	18:56
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SmokeMachine	Zoffix: thanks!	18:56
Xliff	Why isn't it figuring out x³?	18:56
Zoffix	AlexDaniel: so among core devs, I'm the only one who likes it? :)	18:57
Xliff	m: .say for 1, 4, 6...20	18:57
camelia	rakudo-moar 4bf55b1ef: OUTPUT: «Unable to deduce arithmetic or geometric sequence from 1,4,6 (or did you really mean '..'?)␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»	18:57
Xliff	m: .say for 2, 4, 6...20	18:57
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camelia	rakudo-moar 4bf55b1ef: OUTPUT: «2␤4␤6␤8␤10␤12␤14␤16␤18␤20␤»	18:57
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Zoffix	Xliff: is x³ a geometric sequence? I that were x*n	18:58
Xliff	m: .say for 1, 4, 8...200	18:58
camelia	rakudo-moar 4bf55b1ef: OUTPUT: «Unable to deduce arithmetic or geometric sequence from 1,4,8 (or did you really mean '..'?)␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»	18:58
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Xliff	Zoffix: So how do I do x³?	18:59
Zoffix	m: .say for 2, *³ … 20	18:59
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Zoffix	dafuq	18:59
camelia	rakudo-moar 4bf55b1ef: OUTPUT: «(timeout)2␤8␤512␤134217728␤2417851639229258349412352␤14134776518227074636666380005943348126619871175004951664972849610340958208␤282401395870821749694910884220462786335135391185157752468340193086269383036119849990587392099522999697089786549…»	18:59
Xliff	m: .say for 1, 4, *³...200	18:59
Zoffix	I guess it needs exact endpoint to match that way	19:00
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Zoffix	m: .say for 2, ³ … < 20	19:00
AlexDaniel	* > 20	19:00
Xliff	m: .say for 1, 8, *³...200	19:00
Zoffix	m: .say for 2, ³ … > 20	19:00
AlexDaniel	hmmm…	19:00
Xliff	I thinks we broke it.	19:00
Zoffix	m: .say for 2, *³ … 100³	19:00
AlexDaniel	wait it's doing the first query	19:00
Zoffix	Xliff: it does smartmatch. 200 ain't a cube, so it won't ever smartmatch	19:00
Xliff	Ah!	19:00
camelia	rakudo-moar 4bf55b1ef: OUTPUT: «(timeout)1␤4␤64␤262144␤18014398509481984␤5846006549323611672814739330865132078623730171904␤199791907220223502808422222706762643567910281130558153654986045416023791284464999687699590596063486154228923591770023865308670443474450259602571264…»	19:01
	rakudo-moar 4bf55b1ef: OUTPUT: «2␤»	19:01
	rakudo-moar 4bf55b1ef: OUTPUT: «(timeout)1␤8␤512␤134217728␤2417851639229258349412352␤14134776518227074636666380005943348126619871175004951664972849610340958208␤282401395870821749694910884220462786335135391185157752468340193086269383036119849990587392099522999697089786549…»	19:01
	rakudo-moar 4bf55b1ef: OUTPUT: «2␤8␤512␤»	19:01
	rakudo-moar 4bf55b1ef: OUTPUT: «(timeout)2␤8␤512␤134217728␤2417851639229258349412352␤14134776518227074636666380005943348126619871175004951664972849610340958208␤282401395870821749694910884220462786335135391185157752468340193086269383036119849990587392099522999697089786549…»	19:01
AlexDaniel	hah…	19:01
Xliff	m: .say for 1, 8, *³...10³	19:01
Zoffix	m: .say for (1, 8, *³...10³).head: 10	19:01
camelia	rakudo-moar 4bf55b1ef: OUTPUT: «(timeout)1␤8␤512␤134217728␤2417851639229258349412352␤14134776518227074636666380005943348126619871175004951664972849610340958208␤282401395870821749694910884220462786335135391185157752468340193086269383036119849990587392099522999697089786549…»	19:01
	rakudo-moar 4bf55b1ef: OUTPUT: «1␤8␤512␤134217728␤2417851639229258349412352␤14134776518227074636666380005943348126619871175004951664972849610340958208␤282401395870821749694910884220462786335135391185157752468340193086269383036119849990587392099522999697089786549828399657…»	19:01
Zoffix	m: .say for (8, *³...10³).head: 10	19:01
camelia	rakudo-moar 4bf55b1ef: OUTPUT: «8␤512␤134217728␤2417851639229258349412352␤14134776518227074636666380005943348126619871175004951664972849610340958208␤2824013958708217496949108842204627863351353911851577524683401930862693830361198499905873920995229996970897865498283996578123…»	19:01
Zoffix	ah	19:02
	right	19:02
Xliff	m: .say for (1, 8, *³...10³).head: 5	19:02
camelia	rakudo-moar 4bf55b1ef: OUTPUT: «1␤8␤512␤134217728␤2417851639229258349412352␤»	19:02
Zoffix	m: .say for {$++³}...10³	19:02
camelia	rakudo-moar 4bf55b1ef: OUTPUT: «0␤1␤8␤27␤64␤125␤216␤343␤512␤729␤1000␤»	19:02
Xliff	LOL!	19:02
	OK. Thanks.	19:02
AlexDaniel	Zoffix: “I think someone mentioned hosting a different docs website” eh, maybe I can do that if nobody else who knows better is willing to. In some sense I already keep https://docs.6lang.org up… though I wish the unofficial alias was maintained along with official domains, because why not	19:03
Zoffix	m: .say for map *³, ^10	19:03
camelia	rakudo-moar 4bf55b1ef: OUTPUT: «0␤1␤8␤27␤64␤125␤216␤343␤512␤729␤»	19:03
Xliff	So simple is better. KISS	19:03
AlexDaniel	Xliff: are you golfing?	19:03
	if so, that's not what you do for golfing	19:03
Xliff	AlexDaniel: Trying to learn, yes.	19:04
Zoffix	AlexDaniel: what do you mean by maintained?	19:04
	maintained along	19:04
AlexDaniel	Zoffix: I mean the domain name should be owned by those who own perl6.org, the server should be the same one, etc. I think that'd be better even if the alias is unofficial	19:05
	but maybe not, I dunno	19:05
	m: 1….say×>10	19:05
camelia	rakudo-moar 4bf55b1ef: OUTPUT: «Potential difficulties:␤ Useless use of … in sink context␤ at <tmp>:1␤ ------> … ⏏ .say×>10 ␤1␤2␤3␤4␤5␤6␤7␤8␤9␤10␤»	19:05
Zoffix	AlexDaniel: what I meant in earlier convo tho is using "Perl 6" and "$Alias" interchangeable in the docs themselves	19:06
AlexDaniel	Xliff: something like that maybe, from https://github.com/AlexDaniel/6lang-golf-cheatsheet#use-junctions-if-possible	19:06
	Zoffix: yeah, yeah, I was just referring to something else. Nevermind :)	19:07
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Xliff	AlexDaniel++ # Thanks!	19:07
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ryn1x	m: role Foo { multi method bar(Str --> Str) { … } }; class Bar does Foo { multi method bar(Str $a --> Int) { return 1} }	19:09
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camelia	rakudo-moar 4bf55b1ef: ( no output )	19:09
Zoffix	gah	19:09
ryn1x	m: role Foo { multi method bar(Str --> Str) { … } }; class Bar does Foo { multi method bar(Int $a --> Int) { return 1} }	19:09
camelia	rakudo-moar 4bf55b1ef: OUTPUT: «=== SORRY!=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Multi method 'bar' with signature :(Bar: Str $, *%_ --> Str) must be implemented by Bar because it is required by a role␤at <tmp>:1␤»	19:09
ryn1x	Zoffix: multi still does not enforce the return type ^	19:09
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Zoffix	R#2385	19:10
synopsebot	R#2385 [open] : https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/issues/2385 [LTA] LTA role multi method stubs enforce arguments but not return value	19:10
ryn1x	Thanks Zoffix!	19:12
Zoffix	moritz: [Coke] AlexDaniel ugexe so that's it, we're removing "rakudo" from the list because it conflicts with pre-existing compiler name?	19:12
	SmokeMachine: ^	19:12
	I'm trying to junction the coredev "strongly dislike" comments vs. "why are you excluding rakudo and not going with top vote" comments.	19:13
SmokeMachine	that's it on my opinion	19:13
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SmokeMachine	I couldnt find an issue for that, so: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/issues/2386	19:15
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Zoffix	FWIW: there's also "rokudo" as suggestion	19:33
	And here's ex-pumpkin saying they're also "VERY MUCH AGAINST" rakudo: https://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.perl6.language/2018/02/msg36778.html	19:34
	And I meant: if we're removing "rakudo" from the list; wtf to do with "rokudo"? Also remove?	19:36
tadzik	imo calling it rokudo when rakudo already exists would be a bit like calling it prel to make it different from perl	19:37
SmokeMachine	rokudo isnt a name of a compiler...	19:38
tadzik	I know	19:38
Zoffix	tadzik: yeah	19:38
SmokeMachine	I think it should be on the list... but probably with a warn warning to the reader read it right...	19:39
tadzik	imagine telling people about it	19:39
Zoffix	SmokeMachine: why put it on the list if you have to warn about it already?	19:39
tadzik	and then try to remember how you spelled this unfamiliar word to look up the correct thing	19:39
	if you have to clarify to the reader what it means, then you get perl 6 all over again	19:40
Zoffix	And then we rename Rakudo Star to "r*kudo" :P	19:40
tadzik	this is what we're trying to solve here, aren't we? :)	19:40
SmokeMachine	Zoffix: great idea! :)	19:40
tadzik	fsvo "we", I just read and nod most of the time:P	19:40
SmokeMachine	I like rokudo... but I agree to remove it from the list... :(	19:41
	(shouldnt I named my daughter Fernada once my name is Fernando?)	19:42
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tadzik	heh, my name is Tadeusz and my father's name is Tadeusz. It's confusing as hell, and I don't think it would be any better if I was Todeusz instead :P	19:45
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tadzik	ymmv of course	19:46
nige	it's a pity "kudo" is already (R) registered - four letters, easy to type, versionless etc	19:49
	Zoffix, is it your intention that the alias is used to invoke ~bin/perl6	19:50
	?	19:51
Zoffix	nige: mine would be, but it was overrulled by the pumpkin. It'll stay perl6 regardless of the official/unofficial alias status	19:51
nige	the perl6 pumpkin?	19:52
Zoffix	Yes.	19:53
dylanwh	perl++, or "perm" ? :)	19:54
	needs to be (perl++)++, and then we can get some dragon riders...	19:55
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	Zoffix reads through the suggestions...	20:01
Zoffix	I'm imposing additional constraint the name has to be 3 or more characters long (yes, yes, I'm changing the rules as I go, sue me)	20:01
AlexDaniel	BUT IS IT UNICODE CHARACTERS OR BYTES	20:02
	:)	20:02
	.oO( so we take butterfly emoji, then slap some prepend and extend combiners on it… )	20:03
	.oO( maybe skin tone also? Yes that makes sense… )	20:03
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tadzik	heh, sense	20:03
Zoffix	And I'm excluding copyright-infridged names. Like, I'm not bothering to research each one, but just reading the commentary on some suggestions saying that "Roku" is copyrighted for example	20:03
nige	do you mean trademarked?	20:04
Zoffix	Yeah	20:04
tadzik	something went a bit wrong imo on the way from "we should have one standard for all the alphabets in the world" to "the characters in our universal alphabet should have skin colours" P:	20:04
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tadzik	or colour itself for that matter	20:04
Zoffix	Well, I only excluded "Roku" based on that last rule so far.	20:04
ryn1x	When is this list going to be posted to vote on?	20:06
Zoffix	ryn1x: I'll share a preview version in a couple of hours in this channel, just to protect myself from people saying I missed their suggestion and the poll will go up in about 24hr	20:06
nige	thinks that having the alias point to ~/bin/perl6 would be MTA	20:07
	more than awesome	20:07
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Zoffix	nige: the proper term is "PDG"	20:08
	huggable: PDG	20:08
huggable	Zoffix, "Pretty Damn Good"; antonym: LTA "Less Than Awesome"	20:08
Zoffix	:)	20:08
nige	cool ;)	20:08
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nige	perl pdg (tm)	20:09
	^---- taken - doh - this is not easy	20:10
Zoffix	(for records, the 3+ letter rule was inspired by "P++" and "+-1" and "Q6" suggestions)	20:11
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SmokeMachine	is there a rule for no numbers on the name?	20:12
Zoffix	Nope, I got 6lang, Lang6, and 6lerp so far	20:13
SmokeMachine	where's the list?	20:13
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Zoffix	I'm still compiling it from references to discussions I collected since my first blog post on the topic: https://temp.perl6.party/NAMING.txt	20:15
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SmokeMachine	its not accessible	20:16
Zoffix	works for me	20:16
	SmokeMachine: https://gist.github.com/zoffixznet/6557c3af5396b7eddd2f697d732b8499	20:17
nige	feel free to copy the table here: https://gist.github.com/zoffixznet/6557c3af5396b7eddd2f697d732b8499	20:18
	dog	20:18
	doh	20:18
	http://nigelhamilton.com/perl-branding-proposal.html	20:18
	can also help with basic registered trade mark smoke test if needed ...	20:19
Zoffix	Yeah, it's one of the things on my list	20:19
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Zoffix	moritz: where does "Albus" come from again? Harry Potter?	20:20
	(need for parantheticals next to the name)	20:20
pmurias	Zoffix: it has a strong Harry Potter conotation	20:21
nige	is it Dumbledore ?	20:21
pmurias	yep	20:21
Zoffix	ok	20:21
tadzik	nice summary on that site :)	20:21
pmurias	which site?	20:21
Zoffix	pmurias: http://nigelhamilton.com/perl-branding-proposal.html	20:21
pmurias	"Fortran is Albus Dumbledore" first google result for albus programming language ;)	20:22
Zoffix	lol	20:22
SmokeMachine	"qdo" in portuguese means "quando" that means "when"	20:23
pmurias	Albus Dumbledore is also dead	20:23
	;)	20:23
tadzik	noooooo.jpg	20:24
pmurias	so please don't choose Albus ;)	20:25
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timotimo	did he live to be 100 at least?	20:26
	"what age dumbledore" says "about 150 years"	20:26
	so him being dead isn't terrible for "the 100 year language"	20:26
isBEKaml	"Albus Severus Potter" Why not call it Severus?	20:27
	Severely usable	20:27
timotimo	you do not want to associate our language with a child abuser	20:27
Zoffix	I also see a bunch of calls to release Perl 5 to Perl 7 or Perl 28 and do to Perl 6 what Perl 6 did to Perl 5 with the whole 5 vs. 6 thing	20:28
	If I were on Perl 5 team, that's exactly what I'd be pushing for.	20:28
	And Perl 6 will be totally screwed in such a scenario.	20:29
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tadzik	well, is Perl 5 totally screwed now? :)	20:30
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timotimo	some perl 5 people seem to think so	20:30
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tadzik	some of them also seem to think that bumping the version alone will automagically solve all their problems	20:30
pmurias	Zoffix: please don	20:31
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pmurias	't create antagonism with the Perl 5 community	20:31
tadzik	I've talked to someone who claimed that if they were allowed to name it perl 7 they'd suddenly somehow be able to recklessly modernize it beyond belief and make it superior to everything	20:31
Zoffix	tadzik: no, because it was well established before it happened. The impact will not be the same	20:31
timotimo	wait, they're suggesting to rename perl 5 to perl 7 and replace it with perl 6?	20:31
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Zoffix	timotimo: no, they're suggesting a way to kill Perl 6.	20:32
	Well, "they"... The couple of people on reddit, not the Perl 5 Community.	20:32
tadzik	I'm not sure that's the goal	20:32
timotimo	well, if they take perl 6 and just call it perl 7, then perl 6 will be dead, but we'll just work on perl 7 instead?	20:32
	sorry, it was an unproductive dumb joke	20:32
tadzik	timotimo: I think the idea is to rename perl 5.30 to Perl 7	20:32
	because that'll somehow make things better	20:33
timotimo	yeah, and "recklessly modernizing beyond belief" sounds like a perl 6	20:33
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tadzik	surely it's not a classic "I'll just rewrite instead of refactor, it'll be easier" mistake...	20:33
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ryn1x	Perl 6 is portrayed as a sister language to perl 5, but it the beginning... it _was_ actually intended to be it's successor right? So the name at that time made sense?	20:35
uzl	While reading the p6weekly, I came across this HN comment (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18176974). Not sure how much truth there is to it though.	20:35
Zoffix	ryn1x: at the time, but not at the time of the first stable release of the language	20:35
	uzl: yeah, someone mentioned that a few hours ago	20:35
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uzl	Zoffix: didn't see that.	20:36
Zoffix	FWIW: "P6" is another suggestion that's getting cut off by the 3+ letters rule. I also feel it doesn't fit under the "non-perl" rule.	20:36
pmurias	Zoffix: where is the list of rules?	20:37
Zoffix	I also argued against it in the past: https://www.reddit.com/r/perl/comments/6lstqu/the_hot_new_language_named_rakudo/djxa5go/ so feel free to overrule my choice. I don't wanna be told I just pick-and-choose what I like	20:38
buggable	New CPAN upload: Sparrowdo-VSTS-YAML-Cordova-0.0.16.tar.gz by MELEZHIK http://modules.perl6.org/dist/Sparrowdo::VSTS::YAML::Cordova:cpan:MELEZHIK	20:40
nige	just wanted to flag up that having a trade mark that doesn't lead to confusion from a legal perspective is a good thing	20:40
	one of the extra protections in the artistic 2.0 licence includes how it deals with trade marks	20:41
Zoffix	pmurias: the only rules are that the name must be: 3+ letters long (hard to google/undrstand that it's a name; excludes "P++", "P6", "Q6"), must not have "perl" in it (the whole point of the alias in leu of full rename is to avoid the "perl" in the name; excludes a ton of names, like "perl++"), must not be a joke name (like "perl sex" and "+-1"), must not be "rakudo" (conflict with compiler name and requested	20:41
	by several core team members + ex-pumpking); must not be "rokudo" (too close to "rakudo"); must not infridge on known trademark (excludes "Roku" some sort of japaneese device).	20:41
nige	it's important for Perl (R) mark that there is not confusion between Perl 5 and Perl 6	20:41
	having a clear sub-brand alias is important from a legal POV too	20:42
chsanch	Hi, can I suggest a proposal for the name? Soqta (Six in Qechua language) or Suxta (Six in Aymara language)	20:42
nige	(worked briefly as an intellectual property barrister )	20:43
Zoffix	(there's a "Raku" suggestion tho)	20:43
	chsanch: noted	20:43
tadzik	heh, I think Perl Sex, or psex would be hilarious, but I'm mentally 12	20:43
Zoffix	"But it's Six in Latin!!"	20:44
timotimo	"Sux"ta? :)	20:44
cygx	.oO( What's so funny about 'Biggus Dickus'? )	20:45
Zoffix	"Rakuda-dō" suggestion is also getting cut by "must not be rakudo" rule	20:45
chsanch	timotimo: Yah, maybe not that name ..	20:45
timotimo	"shrubbery"	20:45
Zoffix	timotimo: am I to log those or are you joking? :)	20:46
tadzik	unrelated to existing ideas: since "Rust" worked for Rust, maybe pick some stainless metal instead? :)	20:47
timotimo	that was a joke, but maybe i'll find one i'd actually seriously suggest; in that case i'll point it out for clarity's sake	20:48
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ryn1x	I think there might be ways to still have perl in the name without confusing the two dfferent languages. With C it is clear to everyone that it is a different language than C++... and each of those can have their own unconflicting version #'s after the base name. Same with java and javascript. I think having a trailing # as part of the base name might be more of a problem than having perl in the name...	20:49
AlexDaniel	Zoffix: these rules seem reasonable to me	20:50
Zoffix	🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗	20:50
	OK. I finished compiling all the suggestions I've seen: https://gist.github.com/zoffixznet/f18842f7c7e051b8c2fcdc265e40bd15	20:50
tadzik	oh gods	20:50
uzl	I'm cheering for Albus, 6lang/slang or even Rakudo. Albus sounds pretty neat though.	20:50
tadzik	the emojis are everywhere :o	20:50
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timotimo	any feelings on "spero"?	20:50
Zoffix	In ~24hr I'm going to be posting a pall with them. If I missed your suggestion address me with it so I find it.	20:50
timotimo	though tbh i'm not so hot on esperanto	20:50
Zoffix	🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗	20:50
tadzik	spero reminds me of a polish CS player	20:50
	Zoffix &	20:50
cygx	Beril is missing - I believe the misspelling of Beryl was intentional...	20:51
SmokeMachine	ofun	20:51
nige	^--- i like that	20:52
Zoffix	cygx: added. BTW, what's the story behind it? Some chemical fact I don't know about?	20:52
AlexDaniel	SmokeMachine: heh where have you been? :)	20:53
SmokeMachine	:)	20:53
ryn1x	I like Gloria, but it kinda sucks that there is a language named Julia...	20:53
Zoffix	Oh, nm, I was confusing Beryl with Beryllium	20:53
AlexDaniel	I mean, among others it's definitely not bad	20:53
Zoffix	Carbon (6th element)	20:54
ryn1x	Albus is cool too, I think I could get my wife to program if there was a language with a harry potter reference!	20:54
cygx	I was thinking along similar lines for names myself, but Onix is kind of out due to that whole pokemon thing...	20:54
nige	I had it as "beril"	20:54
SmokeMachine	mugwall	20:54
Zoffix	I'm out for real now. Address me (prefix your suggestions with my nick), so I know you're suggesting it for the list, rather than joking/throwing out random suggestions	20:55
	Zoffix &	20:55
AlexDaniel	Zoffix: I'd add ofun to give it a chance :)	20:55
tadzik	:)	20:55
SmokeMachine	AlexDaniel: it's added	20:56
AlexDaniel	ah	20:56
tadzik	I like that	20:56
SmokeMachine	I liked ofun...	20:56
ryn1x	I know a ton of people like 6lang, but I don't know about a name that you have to explain how to pronounce...	20:56
timotimo	the "that's not serious enough" people will probably disapprove :)	20:56
AlexDaniel	ryn1x: what's the wrong way to pronounce it?	20:56
ryn1x	isn't it intended to be pronounced "slang"	20:57
pmurias	Zoffix: name suggestion: "Intricate"	20:57
AlexDaniel	ryn1x: ah, there was that idea initially, but then people didn't like it	20:57
	so if we choose 6lang it'll likely be sixlang	20:57
	pronounced I mead	20:57
	mean*	20:57
nige	ofun - runs deep - a good sign	20:58
ryn1x	oh ... ok ... I guess that is ok then	20:58
SmokeMachine	I think perl6 has so many iconic moments and stories... the name could be a homenage to it... like ofun...	21:02
ryn1x	Zoffix: what do you think of Ada, Lovelace, Grace, or Hopper? First or last names of women promenent in CS history. Goes along with Larry's reasoning behind Camelia and trying to get more girls/women involved in computer science.	21:03
tadzik	Grace sounds good	21:05
uzl	Isn't there an Ada language already?	21:05
timotimo	yes	21:05
	Kate is already a text/code editor	21:05
zostay	Ada is one of the most well known languages there is. All defense software had to be written in it at one time IIRC.	21:06
tadzik	I don't think picking a language name will actually get women involved in CS, but it is a pretty good name	21:06
ryn1x	oops... i knew Ada was a language... ha... but, you get where I was going...	21:06
zostay	I could go for Love as the language. Then I'd write code in the Love language.	21:06
timotimo	there's already Love2d	21:07
uzl	ryn1x: that's fine. just wanted to confirm.	21:07
zostay	ah well	21:07
timotimo	if i ever build something meant as a shell replacement, i'll call it "shlang" or "shlange"	21:15
tadzik	shlong	21:16
timotimo	clearly that's derived from the german for snake, which is "schlange"	21:16
	"lang" is also german for "long"	21:16
tadzik	nodnod	21:17
isBEKaml	I kinda like 6lang	21:19
	as long as nobody ever says 6langsam	21:19
tadzik	perhaps punnability should be a criterion	21:20
timotimo	"sick slang"	21:20
tadzik	:D	21:20
isBEKaml	that's the first thing that came to my mind. And, mix it with german ;-)	21:20
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Xliff	m: say True ~~ Enum	21:41
camelia	rakudo-moar 4bf55b1ef: OUTPUT: «=== SORRY!=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Undeclared name:␤ Enum used at line 1. Did you mean 'Num', 'num'?␤␤»	21:41
Xliff	m: say True ~~ enum	21:41
camelia	rakudo-moar 4bf55b1ef: OUTPUT: «=== SORRY!=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Whitespace required after keyword 'enum'␤at <tmp>:1␤------> say True ~~ enum ⏏ <EOL> ␤»	21:41
Xliff	m: say True ~~ Enumeration	21:42
camelia	rakudo-moar 4bf55b1ef: OUTPUT: «False␤»	21:42
Xliff	m: say True ~~ Int	21:42
camelia	rakudo-moar 4bf55b1ef: OUTPUT: «True␤»	21:42
Xliff	m: our enum <A B C>; say A does Enumeration;	21:43
camelia	rakudo-moar 4bf55b1ef: OUTPUT: «Cannot unbox a type object (Any) to a str.␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»	21:43
Xliff	m: our enum <A B C>; say A ~~ Enumeration;	21:43
camelia	rakudo-moar 4bf55b1ef: OUTPUT: «True␤»	21:43
Xliff	m: our enum <A B C>; say Bool ~~ Enumeration;	21:43
camelia	rakudo-moar 4bf55b1ef: OUTPUT: «False␤»	21:43
Xliff	?!?	21:43
timotimo	m: say Bool.^mro	21:44
camelia	rakudo-moar 4bf55b1ef: OUTPUT: «((Bool) (Int) (Cool) (Any) (Mu))␤»	21:44
timotimo	m: say Bool.^mro(:all)	21:44
camelia	rakudo-moar 4bf55b1ef: OUTPUT: «Unexpected named argument 'all' passed␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»	21:44
timotimo	mh	21:45
	probably an artifact of Bool being so early in the bootstrapping process	21:45
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Xliff	kk	21:48
	(Bool, Enumeration).any will do the trick.	21:48
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isBEKaml	hmm, the hailstone sequence program on examples.perl6.org is slow	21:49
	Awk completed quickly by comparison :-)	21:49
	https://examples.perl6.org/categories/best-of-rosettacode/hailstone-sequence.html	21:49
timotimo	the awk solution is also a few times as many lines :)	21:51
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timotimo	how long does the awk version take?	21:55
isBEKaml	3s	22:00
timotimo	a more imperative version runs in 8.47s on my system	22:01
	or 5.76 in a different version	22:01
	right, that's 2018.09 vs a very recent commit	22:02
isBEKaml	Mine is on the latest HEAD	22:04
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timotimo	excising "return ... if" gets me down to 3.13s	22:05
isBEKaml	perl6 hailstone.p6 234.92s user 0.26s system 99% cpu 3:55.20 total	22:06
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timotimo	i think if we had an int, int version of %% the code would become a bit faster	22:14
	07IAAJ8B3 → emerson	22:15
timotimo	oh wow	22:15
	using $u % 2 == 0 instead of %u %% 2 gets it down to .81s	22:15
	doing 10x as much work takes 7.8s	22:19
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isBEKaml	alright :-)	22:31
	It's late here and I'll come back tomorrow	22:31
	Have fun!	22:31
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buggable	New CPAN upload: Game-Markov-0.1.2.tar.gz by HOLYGHOST https://cpan.metacpan.org/authors/id/H/HO/HOLYGHOST/Perl6/Game-Markov-0.1.2.tar.gz	22:50
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holyghost	^-- there's 5 markov strategies now, I only need to read up on Monte Carlo samples	22:51
Zoffix	holyghost: that still doesn't show up on modules.perl6.org and it still has broken `provides` section (don't think that's the cause of failed indexing tho)	22:59
	holyghost: also, there's a JSON syntax error (missing comma after the first line in provides section) and that might be why it's not indexing.	23:00
	You can use Test::META6 module to verify your META file	23:00
	eco: Test::META6	23:00
buggable	Zoffix, Nothing found	23:00
Zoffix	eco: Test::META	23:00
	:/	23:00
buggable	Zoffix, Test::META 'Test a distributions META file': http://modules.perl6.org/dist/Test::META:github:Jonathan%20Stowe%20%3Cjns+git@gellyfish.co.uk%3E	23:01
Zoffix	That	23:01
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holyghost	Is the source-url correct ?	23:02
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Zoffix	holyghost: it's kinda irrelevant as PAUSE generates its own meta file. But it does generate it with your syntax error in it: https://cpan.metacpan.org/authors/id/H/HO/HOLYGHOST/Perl6/Game-Markov-0.1.2.meta	23:04
	And yeah, that would likely prevent it indexing	23:04
	holyghost: and the same issue in another module. Search for "[error]" in this file: https://modules.perl6.org/update.log	23:04
	And in Bayes-Learn	23:05
	And in Mathx-Stat	23:05
holyghost	I fixed the syntax errors I'll upload later	23:05
Zoffix	holyghost: fix module names in "provides" section as well. Otherwise your module won't get installed correctly	23:05
	You got them all as "Game::Markov::" ... missing last part of the name	23:06
	Filed %% thing as R#2387	23:08
synopsebot	R#2387 [open] : https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/issues/2387 [perf] Missing native candidate for `%%`	23:08
Zoffix	$ perl6 -MWWW -e '"https://modules.perl6.org/update.log".&get.lines.grep(*.contains: "[error").elems.say'	23:12
	27	23:12
	Looks like an easy way to complete Hacktoberfest :)	23:12
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holyghost	Zoffix: I uploaded	23:21
	I've put in the commas in the provides section and explicitly stated Mathx::Stat::Correlation etc	23:23
	It's a stupid parser AFAIK	23:24
	But it does show up webpages	23:24
	We have to conquer the world and write our own :-)	23:28
	one could use the libc/unix access function to load all files in provides sections etc	23:30
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buggable	New CPAN upload: Bayes-Learn-0.1.5.tar.gz by HOLYGHOST https://cpan.metacpan.org/authors/id/H/HO/HOLYGHOST/Perl6/Bayes-Learn-0.1.5.tar.gz	23:31
	New CPAN upload: Mathx-Stat-0.1.5.tar.gz by HOLYGHOST https://cpan.metacpan.org/authors/id/H/HO/HOLYGHOST/Perl6/Mathx-Stat-0.1.5.tar.gz	23:31
	New CPAN upload: Game-Markov-0.1.3.tar.gz by HOLYGHOST https://cpan.metacpan.org/authors/id/H/HO/HOLYGHOST/Perl6/Game-Markov-0.1.3.tar.gz	23:31
Xliff	Is there anything written up about Perl6's macro abilities?	23:31
holyghost	eco: Mathx::Stat	23:32
buggable	holyghost, Nothing found	23:33
holyghost	damn, maybe it shows up later	23:34
	IRC bot -> modules.perl.org -> CPAN	23:34
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holyghost	maybe a mirror works	23:40
	buggable should also search mirrors eventually	23:41
Zoffix	holyghost: yeah, I don't think the parser has been worked on past the initial "get the basics working" stage	23:47
	It takes up to 1 hr to update modules.perl6.org after bot announce	23:48
	holyghost: you still have a syntax error in Bayes::Learn	23:48
	holyghost: use Test::META6 or at least a JSON validator: https://jsonlint.com/	23:49
	*Test::META	23:49
	← jbotz left	23:51
Zoffix	holyghost: and Game-Markov has the same syntax error	23:51
	holyghost: and Game-Markov has another syntax error: trailing comma in provides section	23:51
	eco: App::Mi6	23:51
buggable	Zoffix, App::Mi6 'minimal authoring tool for Perl6': http://modules.perl6.org/dist/App::Mi6:cpan:SKAJI	23:51
rbt_	I suggest "Hanadama". It's the term for the top quality pearl. There are trademarks but they're all fishery related (Oyster farming, etc.)	23:52
Zoffix	holyghost: There are tools for both auto-making and checking dists. It's more productive to use them than to keep making mistakes and blaming the PAUSE parser	23:52
holyghost	Could you tell me the first syntax error you mentioned ?	23:54
Zoffix	rbt_: a quick search leads me to: "Wikipedia Moderators take down Hanadama Page - Not an official grade: 'There has been an ongoing debate as to whether or not "hanadama" is an actual grade used to identify pearls. The answer is no. "Hanadama" is simply a marketing and promotional strategy used by a ring of websites to make you think these are the best pearls. They are not. '"	23:54
	From https://www.pearl-education.com/archive/index.php?t-383.html	23:54
Xliff	Is there anything written up about Perl6's macro abilities?	23:55
Zoffix	eco: 007	23:55
buggable	Zoffix, 007 'Small experimental language with a license to macro': http://modules.perl6.org/dist/007:github:github:masak	23:55
rbt_	Ahh.. that's fair.	23:55
Zoffix	Xliff: that's the only thing I know of ^. masak might know more	23:55
Xliff	Zoffix++	23:55
	Zoffix: I thought Perl6 had its own macro capabilities.	23:56
	007 won't do anything for me if I'm writing in Perl6. ;)	23:56
Zoffix	Xliff: yeah, there's something in there, but it's experimental and likely buggy-broken. 007 is the work for macros that will become core Perl 6 once it's properly fleshed out	23:57
Xliff	Ahh! OK. I just read the grant proposal on it.	23:59
	masak++	23:59
	I hope he gets it working.	23:59

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