IRCloggy #perl6 2019-08-21

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	2019-08-21
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irced	incidentally, i am copying the supply by value at some point i.e. not using any bind operator	00:00
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irced	nope, it's not the bind operator issue. seems to be an issue with passing by value into different functions. maybe i can pass by reference?	00:04
	maybe there's a way to "start" a supply before i pass it along	00:25
	err supplier	00:26
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irced	maybe i just need to rethink domains and signals here 😃	00:30
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scimon	So I'm finding some of the recent comments in the renaming thread confusing.	08:27
	When exactly are you going to have production code which needs to run the most recent version of perl6 (or whatever) (because if you stick to an old version the name doesn't matter) but you can't spend the time to change the shebang line?	08:28
	Seems a very contrived example.	08:28
El_Che	my thoughts exactly	08:29
	it's not like it will be a big bang tomorrow	08:29
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Geth	¦ problem-solving/path-to-raku: 531b628004 \| (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ \| solutions/language/SWOT-TO-RAKU.md	08:36
	¦ problem-solving/path-to-raku: Add initial version of SWOT analysis	08:36
	¦ problem-solving/path-to-raku: review: https://github.com/perl6/problem-solving/commit/531b628004	08:36
	¦ doc: d7b48569e5 \| threadless-screw++ \| doc/Language/regexes.pod6	08:39
synopsebot	Link: https://doc.perl6.org/language/regexes	08:39
Geth	¦ doc: Expansion of Regexes:Lexical Conventions section:	08:39
	¦ doc:	08:39
	¦ doc: - intro clarifying 'regular expressions' and 'regexes';	08:39
	¦ doc: - systematic treatment of anonymous and named regex definitions;	08:39
	¦ doc: - new subsection on common ways of matching regexes;	08:39
	¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/d7b48569e5	08:39
	¦ doc: 22095edbc4 \| threadless-screw++ \| doc/Language/regexes.pod6	08:39
	¦ doc: Minor corrections	08:39
	¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/22095edbc4	08:39
	¦ doc: d10938e8f6 \| (Juan Julián Merelo Guervós)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) \| doc/Language/regexes.pod6	08:39
	¦ doc: Merge pull request #2962 from perl6/regexes	08:39
	¦ doc:	08:39
	¦ doc: Expansion of Regexes:Lexical Conventions section	08:39
	¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/d10938e8f6	08:39
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lizmat	so, what would be reasons to not treat the rename of Perl 6 as a fork ?	08:49
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SmokeMachine	fork++	08:50
	lizmat++	08:50
El_Che	lizmat: because you may end with forked communities?	08:51
lizmat	that could be one, yes... but I'd like to see the fork as a purely technical solution, not as something that would be needed from the community	08:52
El_Che	I get your motivation	08:52
	but it's an extra risk	08:52
	that wasn't there on the original proposal	08:53
	while the risks for "backward compatibility" are exagerated	08:53
lizmat	for the moment I'm just brainstorming	08:53
El_Che	like scimon states	08:53
lizmat	the advantage would be that current users would need to opt-in for the name change	08:53
	rather than it being forced upon them	08:53
El_Che	of course there are risks with a renaming, but backwards compatibility isn't one of them is handled right	08:54
	add a perl6 link for a year	08:54
	solved	08:54
scimon	fork--	08:54
	Epp	08:54
lizmat	I guess we will need more than a year	08:54
El_Che	if you run old code with an old compiler no problem there	08:54
lizmat	scimon: Epp ?	08:55
El_Che	if you maintain your project you have a big windows to make the 1 line change	08:55
scimon	I think we're in a much better place to do a rename than a fork. Really we're at the start of the journey. Forking things now would just end up with 3 groups all of whom don't like each other.	08:55
	(That should have been Eeep a small squeak of fear.)	08:55
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scimon	Perl5 people angry at the remaining Perl6 people. Perl6 people angry at the Raku (or whatever people)... and Raku people sad because of all the anger.	08:56
El_Che	if you get 2 repos/project that are updated individually we don't solve the problem we wanted to fix	08:56
	Perl 6 is still squatting the Perl name (and Perl 5 people still pissed at us)	08:57
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SmokeMachine	As I understood, the fork would not fork the community, just the language... and the oldone would be "abandoned"...	08:57
scimon	Sure there is some Perl6 in production but any there is must surely be able to be updated before it's an issue.	08:57
El_Che	and Perl 6 still lives in a marketing nightmare	08:57
lizmat	El_Che: good point wrt squatting	08:57
El_Che	SmokeMachine: "would"	08:57
scimon	But if there's a fork some people would pick up the "abandoned" one	08:57
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El_Che	lizmat: I see your proposal not only as the only way forward for Perl 6 but also as a healing gesture for the wider Perl community, explicitly acknowledging what Perl 5 people want/need.	08:58
	and the forking weakens your proposal on the core idea	08:59
scimon	Yup	08:59
	Yup again	08:59
SmokeMachine	scimon: yes... you are probably right...	08:59
scimon	Yay it's a blue moon ;)	08:59
SmokeMachine	El_Che: makes sense...	09:00
	fork-- :(	09:00
aearnus[m]	on top of everything else: if there's some band of people that don't like it, the language will still be open source when everything is said and done. That band can fork the language and call it whatever they want	09:00
lizmat	ok, enough about the fork idea, it's bad, stricken from the replies	09:00
	sorry for the noise	09:01
El_Che	aearnus[m]: exactly, but only after the name-version situation is resolved.	09:01
	lizmat: no sorries needed, glad to be a sounding board	09:01
	scimon: we can't disagree later about the semicolons like we do on twitter :)	09:02
scimon	:D	09:02
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scimon	Right meetings	09:03
aearnus[m]	El_Che: I could fork Perl 6 today and call it Perl 7. Or Perl 5, or (etc etc etc). Doubt that would ever hold water though	09:03
	And I doubt it would hold water going forward	09:03
SmokeMachine	aearnus[m]: you are late: https://github.com/perl7/perl7	09:04
	:P	09:04
Geth	¦ problem-solving/path-to-raku: 15a84518d4 \| (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ \| solutions/language/PATH-TO-RAKU.md	09:04
	¦ problem-solving/path-to-raku: Simplify the Executables section	09:04
	¦ problem-solving/path-to-raku: review: https://github.com/perl6/problem-solving/commit/15a84518d4	09:04
aearnus[m]	Nooo, haha. Looks like Perl (12..*) is still open though :)	09:05
Geth	¦ problem-solving/path-to-raku: a1e9c806a1 \| (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ \| solutions/language/PATH-TO-RAKU.md	09:05
	¦ problem-solving/path-to-raku: Mention need for a META6.json file	09:05
	¦ problem-solving/path-to-raku: review: https://github.com/perl6/problem-solving/commit/a1e9c806a1	09:05
lizmat	aearnus[m] it has been suggested the release of Perl 5 in 2020 would be "Perl 32"	09:06
aearnus[m]	Talk about un-google-able	09:07
El_Che	aearnus[m]: no you can't. The Perl name is owned by Larry	09:09
	aearnus[m]: or you can, but it can be taken down	09:09
aearnus[m]	Fair point. Was just saying that as an example though, my point still stands regardless of what the hypothetical fork would be named	09:10
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El_Che	aearnus[m]: what's the point exactly? I missed, I think	09:13
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aearnus[m]	El_Che: just that if a group was REALLY unhappy with the name change, they could always fork the language themselves. it's not on the main community to do that	09:14
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El_Che	aearnus[m]: ah OK, yes indeed. But it's a difference if the "fork" keeps the original name. Who is the fork then?	09:16
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Geth	¦ doc: ca2534fada \| (JJ Merelo)++ \| doc/Language/pod.pod6	09:23
synopsebot	Link: https://doc.perl6.org/language/pod	09:23
Geth	¦ doc: Standardizes Pod name	09:23
	¦ doc:	09:23
	¦ doc: To Pod6, which is exactly the same as the extension. It's bound to change eventually, so it's better if we always use the same thing.	09:23
	¦ doc:	09:23
	¦ doc: I have changed Perl 6 Pod to Pod6 everywhere. Still, the official name with pod <non-breaking whitespace>6 is going to be used somewhere.	09:23
	¦ doc:	09:23
	¦ doc: Pod has also been changed to Pod6, to avoid confusion with Perl 5's Pod. Several versions of the name, with or without capital, were used, so this also standardizes that.	09:23
	¦ doc:	09:23
	¦ doc: This closes #1923	09:23
	¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/ca2534fada	09:23
aearnus[m]	El_Che: the msgs earlier were about whether a name change would work better as a fork of the language instead of a deprecation period and etc. I was just suggesting that the only forking that might happen is by people unhappy with the name. but it probably wouldn't happen either way	09:23
Geth	¦ problem-solving/path-to-raku: 25916df3dc \| (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ \| solutions/language/SWOT-TO-RAKU.md	09:25
	¦ problem-solving/path-to-raku: More SWOTs	09:25
	¦ problem-solving/path-to-raku: review: https://github.com/perl6/problem-solving/commit/25916df3dc	09:25
SmokeMachine	would that be possible to create a tool that changes a module source code to fix everything needed to the rename? (extensions, .perl, Perl::, etc)	09:34
	META6.json	09:35
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lizmat	we need to keep the name "META6.json" unless we want to lose compatibility with PAUSE	09:36
	and that would be bad	09:36
	but, yes, such a tool should be relatively easy to make, or even be made part of something like App::MI6	09:37
moritz	I think SmokeMachine meant that META6.json should be updated to reflect the changes	09:37
lizmat	ah, ok :-) phew	09:38
	things like App::MI6 already read and write the META6.json file anyway...	09:38
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SmokeMachine	maybe even the tool could automatically open PRs...	09:39
lizmat	as far as I can see, the tool only would need to rename files found in the META6.json and then change the META6.json itself accordingly	09:39
SmokeMachine	lizmat: change any call to .perl to .raku, any use of the Perl namespace, perl variable, :from<Perl5> to :from<Perl>, etc...	09:41
lizmat	SmokeMachine: should probably be made into a separate module, so that other apps (like Comma) could make use of it as well	09:42
SmokeMachine	lizmat: yes...	09:42
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Geth	¦ problem-solving/path-to-raku: 59d86086fd \| (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ \| solutions/language/SWOT-TO-RAKU.md	10:23
	¦ problem-solving/path-to-raku: Mention less confusion about name	10:23
	¦ problem-solving/path-to-raku: review: https://github.com/perl6/problem-solving/commit/59d86086fd	10:23
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tbrowder	ref raku marketing: maybe get linus torvalds on board (git and linux kernel dev big-name users of perl)	10:45
Geth	¦ problem-solving/path-to-raku: 2e477d6968 \| (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ \| solutions/language/SWOT-TO-RAKU.md	10:48
	¦ problem-solving/path-to-raku: Mention social media tagging	10:48
	¦ problem-solving/path-to-raku: review: https://github.com/perl6/problem-solving/commit/2e477d6968	10:48
scimon	I started by renaming a module I'm working on from CommonMark::PP6 (Pure Perl 6) to CommonMark::Pure (it doesn't use and external library you see).	11:00
	Currently it's got 130 tests passing and 520 failing so.... some work still to do.	11:00
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Geth	¦ problem-solving/path-to-raku: 2c7aeaf523 \| (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ \| solutions/language/SWOT-TO-RAKU.md	11:05
	¦ problem-solving/path-to-raku: Add marketing opportunity	11:05
	¦ problem-solving/path-to-raku: review: https://github.com/perl6/problem-solving/commit/2c7aeaf523	11:05
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Geth	¦ problem-solving/path-to-raku: a264ae4e52 \| (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ \| solutions/language/SWOT-TO-RAKU.md	11:14
	¦ problem-solving/path-to-raku: Add some more threats	11:14
	¦ problem-solving/path-to-raku:	11:14
	¦ problem-solving/path-to-raku: And remove "because of a name change", because that's what this SWOT	11:14
	¦ problem-solving/path-to-raku: analysis is all about anyway, so redundant	11:14
	¦ problem-solving/path-to-raku: review: https://github.com/perl6/problem-solving/commit/a264ae4e52	11:14
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tbrowder	lizmat: swot threat lose of cpan?	11:22
	*loss	11:22
El_Che	why?	11:35
tadzik	it's definitely a threat imo	11:37
moritz	because it's the Comprehensive Perl Archive Network	11:41
El_Che	wasn't the idea to stay in the Perl (culture) family?	11:41
moritz	the idea, yes	11:41
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moritz	but the problem is that if we drop "Perl" from the name, some people will interpret that as "it's not perl anymore"	11:42
	so people from the Perl 5 community rejecting Raku in parts of the infrastructure is a credible risk	11:42
El_Che	those people reject Perl 6 already as not Perl, don't they?	11:42
moritz	heck, even with "Perl" in the name, there were regular discussions on perlmonks whether Perl 6 questions belonged to perlmonks	11:42
	El_Che: maybe, but they'll have a new lever	11:42
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El_Che	I think that renaming will take the big lever away	11:47
moritz	previously, the discussion was "do we really need Perl 6 questions on perlmonks? they annoy me" -- "yes, Perl 6 is Perl. It's even in the name" -- "OK, guess I can't do much about it, I'll ignore it"	11:48
	after a rename, it will continue as "yes, Raku is still Perl, despite the name" -- "No way, Raku dropped 'Perl' from the name, go away from perlmonks"	11:50
El_Che	moritz: that's a reasonable Perl6 hater	11:50
	more often you have other reactions	11:50
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moritz	El_Che: I've seen this exact behavior far too many times to dismiss it with "hater's gonna hate"	11:50
	and replace perlmonks with TPF, Perl Conferences, Workshops, CPAN and so on	11:51
El_Che	I mean that a lot of people don't react like that. As long Perl 6 jas the version in the name they consider it the enemy	11:51
	I hope that the most extreme defactor will call victory and be happy	11:53
moritz	a lot of people don't react like that, but the few that do pose a risk	11:54
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tadzik	the enemy, yes, but still a relative that they need to care about	12:08
	with Raku wanting to distance itself from Perl, it's not unreasonable to expect some Perl people to stop caring about it	12:09
moritz	or more to the point, wanting to distance themselves from Raku	12:14
El_Che	That happened already	12:15
	cfr SawyerX keynote at YAPC-NA	12:15
	Perl 5 is moving on, and that's great	12:16
	the name is not changing that	12:16
	If people want to stay as 1 meta-communiity it will happen, if people don't it will happen as well	12:17
	whatever the name	12:17
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tbrowder	is an apache mod_raku feasible?	13:07
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tison	Recently I close a series of issues ever interested in. I close them because I myself have no interest of them any more. Please open another issues and refer to the existing issue and continue the discussion. Instead just reopen an issue closed by one's personal willing.	13:25
lucasb	I don't think that's how things work	13:27
moritz	tison: an issue is an issue is an issue, regardless of who has it	13:30
tison	ok, i see.	13:30
moritz	the information that you are no longer interested is valuable, but others could have had the same issue, and not opened a new one because the saw the existing one	13:30
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harmil	Howdy all.	13:51
	m: join ", ", "abc\x[0308]".comb>>.ord>>.fmt("0x%04X")	13:52
camelia	rakudo-moar ecf2b1e4f: ( no output )	13:52
harmil	m: say join ", ", "abc\x[0308]".comb>>.ord>>.fmt("0x%04X")	13:52
camelia	rakudo-moar ecf2b1e4f: OUTPUT: «0x0061, 0x0062, 0x0063␤»	13:52
harmil	That confuses me... shouldn't the last codepoint be an NFG-created reserved point?	13:53
AlexDaniel	m: say join ", ", "abc\x[0308]".comb>>.ord	13:57
camelia	rakudo-moar ecf2b1e4f: OUTPUT: «97, 98, 99␤»	13:57
AlexDaniel	m: say join ", ", "abc\x[0308]".comb>>.ords	13:57
camelia	rakudo-moar ecf2b1e4f: OUTPUT: «97, 98, 99, 776␤»	13:57
AlexDaniel	m: say join ", ", "abc\x[0308]".ords	13:57
camelia	rakudo-moar ecf2b1e4f: OUTPUT: «97, 98, 99, 776␤»	13:57
AlexDaniel	m: say join ", ", "abc\x[0308]".uninames	13:57
camelia	rakudo-moar ecf2b1e4f: OUTPUT: «LATIN SMALL LETTER A, LATIN SMALL LETTER B, LATIN SMALL LETTER C, COMBINING DIAERESIS␤»	13:57
AlexDaniel	harmil: is it more clear this way?	13:58
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harmil	It's not clear to me why comb.>>ord is not showing what's there... it's also not clear to me why I'm not seeing the NFG reserved private use codepoint. Is there a way I can ask for that?	14:04
	Sorry if that sounded brusque. I'm doing 12 things ;-)	14:05
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Grinnz	lizmat: not sure how to phrase this but would add reduced confusion in other analysis as a benefit (not just tiobe)	14:09
	for example source file classification, stack overflow tags (specifically that their system considers the perl6 tag a version of the perl tag), ...	14:10
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Grinnz	basically, all analysis difficulties that stem from the name being differentiated only by a number	14:12
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sena_kun	m: sub a(*$a) {}	14:16
camelia	rakudo-moar ecf2b1e4f: ( no output )	14:16
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sena_kun	is ^ not forbidden to compile just because or?	14:16
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sena_kun	m: sub a(*$a) { say $a }; a(1,2,3);	14:16
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camelia	rakudo-moar ecf2b1e4f: OUTPUT: «=== SORRY!=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Calling a(Int, Int, Int) will never work with declared signature ($a)␤at <tmp>:1␤------> sub a(*$a) { say $a }; ⏏ a(1,2,3); ␤»	14:16
sena_kun	the error message sees the signature as just "$a"	14:17
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sena_kun	m: sub a(*$a) { say $a }; &a.signature.params[0].sigil.say;	14:19
camelia	rakudo-moar ecf2b1e4f: OUTPUT: «$␤»	14:19
sena_kun	m: sub a(*&a) { say $a }; &a.signature.params[0].sigil.say;	14:19
camelia	rakudo-moar ecf2b1e4f: OUTPUT: «=== SORRY!=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Variable '$a' is not declared. Did you mean '&a'?␤at <tmp>:1␤------> sub a(*&a) { say ⏏ $a }; &a.signature.params[0].sigil.say; ␤»	14:19
Doc_Holliwood	I'm scratching my head here guys. I am trying to output "ö" in a Windows console. I set the codepage to 1252 and do .encode("utf-8").decode("windows-1252").say; ( see https://pastebin.com/caNYgdFG ) but the console still thinks it's unicode	14:19
sena_kun	m: sub a(*&a) {}; &a.signature.params[0].sigil.say;	14:19
camelia	rakudo-moar ecf2b1e4f: OUTPUT: «&␤»	14:19
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Doc_Holliwood	This works as it should in Perl 5: use utf8; use Encode; print encode("iso-8859-1","ö");	14:20
	Do I have to tell Perl somehow that STDOUT is not unicode?	14:21
huf	doesnt decode() decode? if so, why are you decoding from windows codepage instead of encoding to it?	14:22
Doc_Holliwood	If I understand that right, no. that should encode from the utf-8 ( 246.char ) to "normal form" and decode that to latin-1	14:26
AlexDaniel	Doc_Holliwood: you might need to reopen $*OUT with a different encoding	14:27
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Grinnz	that's not what encode and decode mean.	14:28
	you encode to a character encoding and decode from it	14:28
	and 246.char is not utf-8, it's a character	14:29
	I assume the details here are utf-8 oriented, so you need to change stdout to do cp1252 instead like AlexDaniel said	14:30
	er, defaults	14:30
Doc_Holliwood	it's not a character. it's a Str	14:30
Grinnz	I am speaking in the Unicode sense	14:30
Doc_Holliwood	m: 246.char.WHAT.say	14:30
camelia	rakudo-moar ecf2b1e4f: OUTPUT: «No such method 'char' for invocant of type 'Int'. Did you mean any of these?␤ can␤ chars␤ chop␤ chr␤␤ in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»	14:30
Doc_Holliwood	m: 246.chr.WHAT.say	14:31
camelia	rakudo-moar ecf2b1e4f: OUTPUT: «(Str)␤»	14:31
Grinnz	it is not encoded to utf-8.	14:31
	it is not encoded to anything	14:31
	the output would encode it to utf-8 by default (again, assuming I understand correctly)	14:31
AlexDaniel	m: $OUT = $OUT.open: enc => ‘windows-1252’; say ‘œ’	14:32
camelia	rakudo-moar ecf2b1e4f: OUTPUT: «\x9C␤»	14:32
AlexDaniel	e: $OUT = $OUT.open: enc => ‘windows-1252’; say ‘œ’	14:32
evalable6	AlexDaniel, rakudo-moar cd8463a85: OUTPUT: «􏿽x9C␤»	14:32
AlexDaniel	that seems to work?	14:33
Grinnz	you need to have the output encode to cp1252 because that's what your terminal expects. most terminals in unix land expect utf-8	14:33
	as well as irc	14:34
Doc_Holliwood	I see	14:34
	$*OUT.encoding("latin-1"); did the trick, I don't need to encode or decode anything, I can just .say	14:34
Grinnz	note that latin1 is missing a bunch of characters from cp1252. so make sure to use the latter if you want those	14:35
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	Doc_Holliwood reads the fucking manual	14:42
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Doc_Holliwood	or, I might simply set the codepage to utf-8 ( 65001 )	14:42
Grinnz	probably a good idea	14:43
Doc_Holliwood	I have my moments ;-)	14:44
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Doc_Holliwood	Is there a way to alias native types? so I can for example write "sub foo(BOOL, DWORD) is native yada yada" instead of "sub foo(uint32, int32)"?	15:27
	I tried inheriting from them but apparently that isn't supported	15:27
AlexDaniel	m: constant \x := uint32; sub foo(x, int32) {}; dd &foo	15:29
camelia	rakudo-moar ecf2b1e4f: OUTPUT: «Sub foo = sub foo (uint32 $, int32 $) { #`(Sub\|59767352) ... }␤»	15:29
Doc_Holliwood	very nice	15:32
	ty	15:32
	this is a syntax error, sadly. constant \LPDWORD := uint32 is rw; But I guess I can live with DWORD is rw in the signature instead :-D	15:36
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lizmat	weekly: https://yakshavingcream.blogspot.com/2019/08/summer-in-review.html	15:46
notable6	lizmat, Noted! (weekly)	15:46
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Geth	¦ doc: Michael-S++ created pull request #2964: Added comment syntax on 101 page.	16:06
	¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/pull/2964	16:06
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Geth	¦ whateverable: f564a7f6e1 \| (Aleks-Daniel Jakimenko-Aleksejev)++ \| 2 files	16:19
	¦ whateverable: See messages that are sent to other users	16:19
	¦ whateverable:	16:19
	¦ whateverable: Using $.NEXT is not enough to make IRC::Client redispatch to another	16:19
	¦ whateverable: method. The plugin system seems a bit fragile, but maybe it's because	16:19
	¦ whateverable: I'm not using it properly. Anyway, this should now catch more	16:19
	¦ whateverable: messages, perhaps with a few (mostly irrelevant) exceptions.	16:19
	¦ whateverable: review: https://github.com/perl6/whateverable/commit/f564a7f6e1	16:19
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AlexDaniel	timotimo: ↑ fixed!	16:19
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sarna	hi, I'm trying to sneak perl6 into my workplace and I need to install it on a docker container quickly - what would be the best way to do this?	16:25
	I can't build rakudo-star, it'd be too slow	16:25
timotimo	i'd recommend going with nxadm's packages	16:25
	or using a perl6 docker image as the base perhaps	16:25
sarna	yeah I've been thinking about just pulling an image and then discarding it (I need to do some string processing before prod build)	16:26
	timotimo: could you please link me to nxadm's packages? can't find them in ddg	16:27
	oh, found them! nevermind :D	16:27
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sarna	alpine builds are available, perfect. thanks!	16:30
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sarna	interesting	16:42
Geth	¦ whateverable: 51c0e06894 \| (Aleks-Daniel Jakimenko-Aleksejev)++ \| 2 files	16:48
	¦ whateverable: Fix Reportable and Nativecallable	16:48
	¦ whateverable:	16:48
	¦ whateverable: It's a PATH issue. The code was very fragile and should be a little	16:48
	¦ whateverable: bit better now.	16:48
	¦ whateverable: review: https://github.com/perl6/whateverable/commit/51c0e06894	16:48
	¦ whateverable: 9d16c7cd37 \| (Aleks-Daniel Jakimenko-Aleksejev)++ \| xbin/Reportable.p6	16:50
	¦ whateverable: Use the right variable name (oops)	16:50
	¦ whateverable: review: https://github.com/perl6/whateverable/commit/9d16c7cd37	16:50
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El_Che	sarna: add this in your image: https://github.com/nxadm/rakudo-pkg#os-repositories	16:51
	if you need alpine, there are apks here: https://github.com/nxadm/rakudo-pkg#direct-downloads	16:52
sarna	El_Che: yeah, thanks :) I'll have to go for direct downloads, since we use alpine for this build	16:52
	yeah	16:52
El_Che	however, if you need to compile C modules, you'll probably want something else than alpine, eg debian-slim	16:52
sarna	now I'm doing the substitution thing with awk and it's.. not pretty	16:53
El_Che	ah ok, I haven't found an easy way to create alpine repos yet	16:53
	if you do, feel free to open an issue or send a PR :)	16:53
sarna	well, I can probably switch to debian/ubuntu if alpine proves problematic in this regard	16:53
	will do :)	16:53
	sarna is their own devops team	16:54
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El_Che	maybe the new github CI infra will support apk by an api. I am using bintray because rpm and deb repos are easy there	16:54
	(and the bandwidth)	16:55
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sarna	bintray seems nice	16:56
	don't know about github, I've mostly moved from there - I'm not really comfortable giving my stuff to Microsoft :)	16:57
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lizmat	weekly: https://perlweeklychallenge.org/blog/meet-the-champion-021/	17:54
notable6	lizmat, Noted! (weekly)	17:54
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woolfy1	I wanted to write a reaction to the renaming plans of lizmat, because I disagree with any such plans quite a lot.	18:02
	I wrote this...	18:02
	weekly: https://wendyga.wordpress.com/2019/08/21/talks-in-the-perl-6-community-might-lead-to-change-the-name-of-perl-6/	18:02
notable6	woolfy1, Noted! (weekly)	18:02
[Coke]	woolfy1++	18:07
	... this is lo!	18:10
	nger than I thought!	18:10
woolfy1	It is indeed quite long. It is even less coherent than I wanted. I am not capable of coherent when it comes to the name of Perl 6.	18:12
	But since I don't have a vote in this issue, I can merely blog. Still, I am trying to help lizmat...	18:12
lizmat	Once upon a time in Hollywood&	18:14
Grinnz	woolfy1: It makes me sad to read the ending. And I'm sorry the discussions cause you such grief. But no matter how much you want Perl 6 to be the successor of Perl 5, it is directly in conflict with what a lot of people want, and with what the languages are now in design and intent. And as long as the names are misrepresenting that relationship, people will continue to hate the other community, and it's destructive and antithetical	18:17
	to the relationship we could and should have. If Perl 6 is to replace Perl 5, it will only do so by attrition, decades in the future.	18:17
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AlexDaniel	woolfy1: what's your handle on github?	18:21
El_Che	I my --probably irrelevant-- opinion, if the naming situation persists Perl 5 and 6 will loose all relevance in a few years. A now of never moment in time. (Perl will have maintenance codebase, but that will only get you so far. It also need new modern stuff in new major releases)	18:22
AlexDaniel	found it	18:22
El_Che	Renaming does not fix that, but it opens an opportunity, small as it may be	18:23
AlexDaniel	woolfy1: invitation sent, you can accept it here: https://github.com/perl6/problem-solving/invitations	18:23
	woolfy1: after that you'll be able to leave comments on Raku issue/PR	18:24
	if anybody else has something valuable to say but can't, just ping me	18:24
[Coke]	the items that go in Perl 5 can be new, modern things regardless.	18:24
El_Che	[Coke]: the most modern thing perl as added in a decade is signatures in experimental.	18:24
[Coke]	I do wish we had a writeup of the various detours & conversations we've already had over the last 20 years.	18:25
El_Che	[Coke]: but that's up to the Perl 5 people to decide where they want to go. Like I said, my irrelevant 2c	18:25
[Coke]	El_Che: and that has nothing to do with the name.	18:25
El_Che	Squatting the next major version so the whole world thinks you're dead? It aabsolutely does.	18:26
Grinnz	the appearance of the ability to modernize itself has everything to do with the name.	18:26
[Coke]	(up to p5 people) aye. Sawyer X asked the question at the last TPC, not sure if he announced the answer.	18:26
El_Che	they can steal all the good features of JS, Go, Rust and .Net and still be dead because there is a slower newer version out there	18:26
	[Coke]: my point is that for P5, renaming is not enough	18:27
	[Coke]: but is a part of the solution	18:27
	if the major release name is freed, but Perl 5 core still misses modern OO, concurrency and a sane deployment model, the decline will not stop	18:28
AlexDaniel	woolfy1: yeah, the versioning is stupid	18:30
	:)	18:30
	I guess it was appropriate because of perl5	18:31
El_Che	because of reasons :)	18:32
	anyway, my opinion is not meant to disrespect people that have invested a lot of years on Perl 5 and 6.	18:33
cpan-p6	New module released to CPAN! Date::Calendar::Hebrew (0.0.2) by JFORGET	18:37
[Coke]	Thank you for the caveat, lots of strong feelings on this topic.	18:37
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AlexDaniel	woolfy1: ♥	18:39
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El_Che	[Coke]: yeah, I wrote blog post about that in 2018 :(	18:43
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El_Che	in November and I predicted the return of the discussion every 6 months. Not that far off :)	18:43
tadzik	hehe, there seems to be a sentiment among Perl 5 people that "damn, if only we weren't limited by the name and we could drop backcompat we could make Perl 5 so much better so quickly!"	18:45
	I... wish them all the best if they decide to go for it	18:45
El_Che	tadzik: yeah :(	18:46
rindolf	hi all	18:47
El_Che	o/	18:47
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Grinnz	tadzik: it is not an all or nothing. it is more that the name prevents many options	18:56
El_Che	With the small pool of people that can actually hack the core, I find it unlikely that what's needed will happen. However, for in the case it does, the proper thing to do is to help where possible. The naming mess is one of those opportunities.	18:58
aearnus[m]	was kinda out of the loop for a few days: did consensus settle on Raku or Camelia?	18:59
	El_Che inserts animated gif of Homer disappearing in hte bushes	19:00
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	aearnus[m] uploaded an image: tenor_gif4770222567960852367.gif (84KB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/YulUFgdAYgOYwpRiKLETCHdd >	19:01
El_Che	exactly :)	19:01
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	AlexDaniel → mom	19:15
	mom → yourmom	19:16
	yourmom → I`	19:16
	I` → someone`	19:17
	someone` → also	19:17
	also → such	19:18
	such → or	19:18
	or → and	19:18
	and → can`	19:18
	can` → when	19:19
	when → you`	19:19
	you` → think	19:20
	think → AlexDaniel	19:21
	AlexDaniel → could	19:21
	could → why`	19:21
	why` → AlexDaniel	19:22
AlexDaniel	if anybody wonders what these nicknames are about, see this: https://colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_log/perl6-dev?date=2019-08-21#l167	19:22
jdv79	you could probably test that sort of thing in a random chan...;)	19:23
El_Che	and miss all the fun? nooo	19:26
[Coke]	I'm sure he did, but when he renames himself we can all see it, no?	19:26
	oh, it all happened in -dev. :\|	19:27
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nepugia	is that the matrix bridge?	19:38
	or a matrix bridge doing that?	19:38
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	guifa just realized that woolfy1 is wendy.	19:44
guifa	(sometimes it gets confusing going back and forth between github here and FB. I’m equally as guilty with three different names ha)	19:45
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aearnus[m]	nepugia: sending the gif? I'm just using a matrix based client	19:54
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AlexDaniel	jdv79: test what stuff? It's actual messages being delivered	20:02
	basically, when yoleaux was still here it did a poor job of figuring out if the nickname is actually valid	20:03
	so sometimes people would forget to include the nickname in the message and they'd end up being sent to random words	20:04
lucasb	I hope they got n0tjack's message...	20:04
AlexDaniel	I think that one was deliberate :)	20:04
lucasb	:D	20:05
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nepugia	i ment the nick stuff, the matrix bridge has a defect which i consider a serious exploit with the nicks ;(	20:07
AlexDaniel	guifa: it was difficult during perlcon because badges didn't even have nicknames, only real names	20:07
nepugia	basically if you have a matrix acc and set your nick on the irc side to a word the bridge will translate that to your matrix nickname	20:07
AlexDaniel	guifa: or at least most of them didn't	20:07
	nepugia: sounds fun	20:08
nepugia	absolutely	20:09
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guifa	AlexDaniel: I wish I could have gone this year. Hopefully going to make it next year and going to propose a talk on internationalization/localization stuff (which I should have more fleshed out by then)	20:17
MasterDuke	same here, mostly (wish i could have gone, going to try for next year, but not going to propose a talk on internationalization/localization stuff)	20:22
jdv79	AlexDaniel: it was a feature;)	20:25
AlexDaniel	nah	20:26
	.tell jdv69 hello	20:26
tellable6	AlexDaniel, I haven't seen jdv69 around, did you mean jdv79?	20:26
AlexDaniel	now that's a feature	20:26
jdv79	what if i want to send a msg to someone that hasn't been around?	20:27
AlexDaniel	then you wait	20:28
aearnus[m]	that's what email is for :^)	20:29
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rba	seen: `	21:20
perlbot	rba: I last saw ` saying "Helo." at Fri Jul 5 03:04:35 2013 Z.	21:20
tellable6	rba, I saw ` 2016-12-28T17:19:46Z in #perl6: <`> heh, registered	21:20
rba	seen: friend	21:21
perlbot	rba: I last saw friend saying "hola amigos" at Thu Jul 18 23:35:43 2013 Z.	21:21
tellable6	rba, I haven't seen friend around, did you mean ddddddd?	21:21
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AlexDaniel	simcop2387: interesting. Seems like the bots clash on seen: command	21:25
	I didn't know perlbot had it	21:25
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simcop2387	hmm, yea seen shouldn't be working that way for perlbot. I'll have a look tonight after work. at least it's not something too terrible it's doing that with	21:27
	it should be requiring you to address it for that	21:27
AlexDaniel	perlbot: seen AlexDaniel	21:27
perlbot	AlexDaniel: I last saw AlexDaniel saying "AlexDaniel" at Wed Aug 21 21:29:52 2019 Z.	21:27
AlexDaniel	simcop2387: cool, thanks	21:28
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woolfy1	Grinnz: it may come as a shock to you, and to others, but you are among the people who make me want to leave the Perl-community. You are not an honest man, coming on this channel and promote whatever you want to promote.	21:51
Grinnz	I'm sorry you feel that way. I have been completely honest in what I have said.	21:51
woolfy1	Grinnz: you sat across Liz during the latest Perl Toolchain Summit, and did not utter a word to her, not even when she talked to you. I witnessed it. I spoke later to you and got a short but grumpy reply. You seem to despise Perl 6 and I have no idea what you are doing here.	21:51
	Grinnz: stop it. You are among those Perl 5 people who want Perl 6 to go away. You are not honest.	21:52
	AlexDaniel: thanks for the invitation. I will think about it. Buit I think I have said what I wanted to say.	21:53
Grinnz	That is how I act with anyone. I know it can give the wrong impression and I'm sorry it did to you	21:53
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woolfy1	To all: I am a bit sorry that the first thing I did, after going to the movies with lizmat and returning home, is to berate somebody who I consider to be a hypocrite.	21:53
Grinnz	Please don't project motivations on me. I am here because I have a vested interest in how both communities proceed, but I am happy to leave if it makes you feel better.	21:54
dominix	hi everyone, ... is there any plan for perl6 on Clear linux ?	21:54
	bartolin hugs woolfy1	21:55
woolfy1	Hi guifa... I am indeed Wendy. Woolfy is my nickname for over 20 years already... :-)	21:56
	woolfy1 hugz bartolin right back	21:57
woolfy1	Grinnz : I do not want you to go anywhere. I just don't understand your presence here, other than that you want to be very sure that perl 6 f**ks off into the void. And yes, I am grumpy and impolite.	21:59
Grinnz	I have a deep respect for what you both have contributed to the community, even though I make very clear my disagreements. I hope the discussion can continue with the respect it had in the issue.	21:59
woolfy1	Plus, I am not the one to make such a decision.	21:59
	Nope, that ship has sailed for me.	21:59
	woolfy1 exit...	21:59
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El_Che	woolfy1: Grinnz has been very polite and constructive, I don't think conflict is needed	22:00
tellable6	El_Che, I'll pass your message to woolfy1	22:00
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Grinnz	If she wants me to say that I only care what happens with Perl 6 in as much as it will affect Perl, the language and the name, then I will say that. that doesn't mean it has to be an adversarial concern.	22:04
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AlexDaniel	dominix: maybe? What's the policy there?	22:12
	Doc_Holliwood attempts to build rakudo under Haiku	22:13
AlexDaniel	dominix: also, can you install rpms or other types of packages?	22:13
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pmurias	what happened with our Perl 6 GSoC projects?	22:19
	I have only seen reports for the self contained executable ones	22:19
AlexDaniel	pmurias: the docs one is going fine if I understand correctly	22:20
	the one about encodings also had some progress	22:20
	but I don't have any links…	22:20
MasterDuke	pretty sure they were linked in a weekly (maybe not both in the same one)	22:21
pmurias	good, I just got worried something bad happened to all of them :/	22:22
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AlexDaniel	no, I think it's fine	22:22
	jmerelo: is there an overview of all our gsoc projects? https://colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_log/perl6?date=2019-08-21#l728	22:22
tellable6	AlexDaniel, I'll pass your message to jmerelo	22:22
jnthn	The encodings one was a success in so far as it's resulted in support for GB2312 being added, which I believe was its goal	22:23
MasterDuke	pmurias: complete change of topic, but i've forgotten how truffle support is going. i think a while ago you implemented something which should free up some new low-hanging fruit?	22:25
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SmokeMachine	vrurg: just to let you know if you are interested: https://gist.github.com/FCO/cc73863cf9058723176aa43781cb1f2d	22:58
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vrurg	SmokeMachine: Oh, how I missed it! ;) I need to think of another project for myself to play with many great stuff around.	23:00
SmokeMachine	vrurg: it's on a branch yet... a lot of tests to fix...	23:01
vrurg	SmokeMachine: My current queue of tasks is currently long enough to only dream of anything like that. :)	23:02
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aearnus[m]	SmokeMachine: if you managed to integrate Red with Cro, that would totally be Perl 6's killer app	23:05
SmokeMachine	aearnus[m]: something like this? https://github.com/FCO/Cro-HTTP-Session-Red	23:06
	:)	23:06
vrurg	aearnus[m]: Cro::HTTP::Session::Red to start with.	23:06
	Ah, I'm late!	23:06
rba	AlexDaniel: Is tellable6 got more IQ and acts on his own? Did he pass the turing test already?	23:07
vrurg	aearnus[m]: otherwise, what other level of intergation can you think of?	23:07
SmokeMachine	vrurg: that's a good question!	23:08
	aearnus[m]: do you have a suggestion for that integration?	23:10
aearnus[m]	The session manager is nice	23:14
	vrurg yawns... JVM backend builds...	23:14
aearnus[m]	I just miss my Ruby on rails `rake db:create_migration` workflow	23:15
SmokeMachine	aearnus[m]: https://github.com/FCO/Red/issues/15	23:15
vrurg	aearnus[m]: wanna try yourself in this area?	23:15
aearnus[m]	Hmm, I'd like to. A lot of ORM stuff goes over my head though	23:18
SmokeMachine	aearnus[m]: could you comment on that thread to help me to find out how would work a good migration?	23:18
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aearnus[m]	SmokeMachine: I read through that thread and I pretty much agree with everything you put forth	23:36
	I don't think i'd have anything else on top of it. i'm looking forward to seeing how it works out :D	23:36
AlexDaniel	rba: yeah, pretty much	23:38
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SmokeMachine	aearnus[m]: have you seen that the CLI already started?	23:39
aearnus[m]	yeah, I looked at it since you sent the link	23:40
AlexDaniel	rba: at least you don't need to use .tell anymore, but .seen is still required I guess	23:41
	rba: unless you talk to the bot directly	23:41
	tellable6: rba	23:41
tellable6	AlexDaniel, I saw rba 2019-08-21T23:07:33Z in #perl6: <rba> AlexDaniel: Is tellable6 got more IQ and acts on his own? Did he pass the turing test already?	23:41
AlexDaniel	tellable6: rba and you can also pass a message like this	23:42
tellable6	AlexDaniel, I'll pass your message to rba	23:42
SmokeMachine	AlexDaniel: you don't need to use .tell? how do you use it?	23:42
AlexDaniel	SmokeMachine: just say “nickname: I hope to see you soon!” and that's it	23:42
	Zoffix: I miss you!	23:42
	OK it didn't work this time xD	23:42
	I wonder why	23:43
SmokeMachine	AlexDaniel: Are you using Red for that? :P	23:43
	AlexDaniel: just kidding...	23:44
AlexDaniel	ok now I won't be able to sleep until I figure this out :D	23:44
	SmokeMachine: ah, actually, I know	23:45
SmokeMachine	AlexDaniel: but is it saving every mentioned message?	23:45
AlexDaniel	SmokeMachine: Zoffix was away for so long that tellable6 no longer thinks that it's a valid nick	23:46
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AlexDaniel	the cutoff is at 3 months currently	23:46
	but it works for anybody else, like	23:46
	woolfy: thank you for your work!	23:47
tellable6	AlexDaniel, I'll pass your message to woolfy1	23:47
AlexDaniel	also notice how it autocorrected the nickname :)	23:47
	SmokeMachine: it doesn't save anything unless it say “I'll pass your message”. Also it saves the very last message of every user for seen functionality, but that's it	23:48
SmokeMachine	AlexDaniel: it saves to send every message for people that has not said anything for X time?	23:48
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AlexDaniel	SmokeMachine: it'll automatically .tell if the user is currently not on the channel	23:49
SmokeMachine	hum...	23:49
	AlexDaniel: makes sense...	23:49
AlexDaniel	it behaves smarter than the code looks :)	23:50
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AlexDaniel	just a few ifs	23:50
SmokeMachine	AlexDaniel: seems interesting...	23:51
AlexDaniel	180 lines of code https://github.com/perl6/whateverable/blob/master/xbin/Tellable.p6	23:51
aearnus[m]	hehe, FootgunDB	23:53
AlexDaniel	:D	23:54
aearnus[m]	is there an easy vector drawing library for perl6? i'm thinking something like Haskell's Gloss	23:59
	(I had an itch to make one of those silly little falling sand games)	23:59

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